"Grass" wrote in message
news:1105069520.783019.140580@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Scott Hillard wrote:

> > > You put up HECS and it acts as a deterrent to many
> > > people seeking a university education, particularly those from
> > > modest backgrounds.

> > Nope, it acts as a deterrent to the lazy and useless who refuse to
> > apply themselves. Good thing, too.

> That's not true.

Yes, it is.

> That's not how it works. It is a lot of money to be in
> debt when you are from a modest background

What has that got to do with it? Either you plan to acquire a degree as a
means to get a well-paying job, or you don't.

If you are enterprising, resourceful and apply yourself, why would you NOT
back your odds of succeeding in this goal with the appropriate degree?

> and you were already going to struggle to get through university due to
costs like transport,
> books, food and rent.

All of which can be overcome by WORKING whilst studying. You might be
amazed to learn this, but there is no rule saying you have to put your life
on hold for three years to acquire a degree. Lazy untermensch who sponge
off the taxpayer for 3 years and complete their degree in record time, will
NEVER be as attractive to employers as those who took 4, 5 or 6 years to
complete their degree, but paid their own way and consistently worked
throughout the process.

I'm hardly superman, and I managed to combine work that varied from
part-time to full-time whilst I studied, and completed my degree in 5 years.
Certainly didn't hamper my career progression.

Ditto most of my mates - NONE of whom completed their degrees in the minimum
timeframe - because all of them worked to pay their own way.

And guess what? They've all done exceptionally well for themselves.

> A lot of people have to take extra loans out to
> cover the food and all along with the HECS.

Lazy, useless untermensch. Even McDonalds pays enough to cover the rent,
food, and textbooks.

> When it all adds up, it
> does effectively work as a deterrent for those from lower socio
> economic backgrounds.

Only if they have inherited the lazy, useless and "glass is half empty"
characteristics of their loser parents. Plenty manage to rise above that
and succeed in spite of their circumstances - THEY are the ones who will
make a go of life.

Whilst the likes of you just whinge on usenet.

> > > Only an extreme sense of denial can claim this is not the case.

> > Assertion being the better part of proof here?

> It's basic economics. If you raise the price of a product, fewer people
> are going to buy it, right?

Wrong. Doesn't work that way in the first world, particularly with a
"must-have" product.

If Apple increased the price of iPods by 10% tomorrow, do you think sales
would be affected? Not on your life.

> There is a good writeup in "The Howard Years" that covers the
> consequences of the circa 1996 HECS rises. News articles on the
> consequences of the latest HECS rises are also appearing:

> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=27894
--
> Uni fees starting to bite: Labor
> 13:42 AEDT Thu Jan 6 2005

> The number of Australians at university has fallen for only the second
> time in the past 50 years, prompting fears the government's new fee
> structure is acting as a deterrent.

Precisely as it should, because there are WAY too many people going straight
into University, and WAY too few people undertaking apprenticeships in areas
where there are gross skills shortages.

> Figures from the Department of Education, Science and Training (DEST)
> show the number of Australian students enrolled in university courses
> fell from 659,800 in 2003 to 658,048 last year.

Hang on, that's the number of people ENROLLED, not the people entering
tertiary education?

What about the losers who drop-out?

Can we say "confounding variable", boys and girls?

> "This is only the second time that the total number of Australians at
> university has dropped since 1953," Labor education spokeswoman Jenny
> Macklin said.

Macklin can't even manage to maintain a healthy lifestyle. I'll be buggered
if I'll consider her opinions on higher education.

> "This is an appalling indictment of the Howard government and means
> that the number of Australians at university is declining when it
> should be increasing."

Why should it be increasing?

> The figures also revealed that the number of people starting
> undergraduate university courses dropped in 2004 for the third year in
> a row, down 5.5 per cent since 2002.

Ah, now you might be getting somewhere - but see my point re: oversupply of
graduates.

> Unmet demand for university places from qualified students who missed
> out on a place remained static at about 20,000 places last year.

So much for the hordes of "poor smart kids" being pushed out by "dumb rich
kids".

> National Union of Students NSW president Sarah-Jane Collins said the
> figures, which also showed a 6.5 per cent drop in demand for university
> places in NSW between 2002-04, were the first indication that the 25
> per cent fee hikes were a factor.

Naturally the compulsory bludger-funding "union fees" aren't a factor.

Right, comrade?

> University of Sydney Students' Representative Council president Rose
> Jackson said the 25 per cent increase meant students simply could not
> afford to attend university.

Of course she says that - what sort of career options are there for
"University Students' Representative Council Presidents"?

ALP preselection, or the dole.

> > That's why we get 80yo retired Barristers doing history degrees on
> > HECS, yes?

> I find it interesting how people use bizarre examples to try to
> disprove an entire concept. 80 year old Barristers doing history
> degrees are far from the norm in our universities. Please feel free to
> walk into a university and observe the number of 80 year old Barristers
> doing history degrees.

The one I know is called "Bruce", former RAF Mossie pilot and (as stated) a
former Barrister. Worth a shitload, marvellous bloke and a just and upright
man.

But, an ex-Barrister in his 80s who is doing a history degree. Can he be
the only one in the country?

> > > The demographic in our universities is changing
> > > towards more dumb rich kids.

> > Evidence?

> > Well?

> From working in our universities for years

Wow, what a shock, I never would have guessed you have spent your life on
the public tit.................cough.

> and knowing many other people in the universities,

See above.

> along with the demographic changes that have occurred in this time,

What - more girls in hipsters?

> this is a fact.

You'll have to do a LOT better than that, sunshine. Any demographic data to
back up your bullshit?

No?

Didn't think so.

> It's entirely predictable.

No, the whingeing of public tit-suckers is entirely predictable. How many
"Not Happy, John" stickers adorn your car?

From:	Chasing Kate
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:20:16 +1030

Geez what do these people want removal of HECS and
back to the old Labor days of free university and lots
and lots of "professional students?"

Isn't it true that in those days lots of students just
did course after course after course hence that nickname?

From:	Scott Hillard
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:26:45 +1100

"Chasing Kate" wrote in message
news:41DF4A68.295C73BB@internode.on.net...

> Geez what do these people want removal of HECS and
> back to the old Labor days

HECS was introduced by Labor.

Paul Cheating, as I recall.

> of free university

No such thing - just like "free" healthcare. SOMEBODY has to pay for it.
Usually those who gain the lest benefit.

> and lots and lots of "professional students?"

We still have tons of those.

From:	Chasing Kate
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:01:12 +1030

Scott Hillard wrote:

> "Chasing Kate" wrote in message
> news:41DF4A68.295C73BB@internode.on.net...
>
> > Geez what do these people want removal of HECS and
> > back to the old Labor days
>
> HECS was introduced by Labor.
>
> Paul Cheating, as I recall.

Ah sorry there Scott

I thought there was a time before HECS when uni was free
or almost such....

From:	Tex
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:42:17 GMT

"Chasing Kate" wrote in message
news:41DFD290.AF08337F@internode.on.net...

> I thought there was a time before HECS when uni was free
> or almost such....

Uni has never been "free"

From:	Boxer
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:17:45 GMT

"Tex" wrote in message
news:41dfd528$1@news.comindico.com.au...
>
> "Chasing Kate" wrote in message
> news:41DFD290.AF08337F@internode.on.net...
>
>
>> I thought there was a time before HECS when uni was free
>> or almost such....
>
> Uni has never been "free"
>

Particularly with compulsory Student Union fees, what ever happened to
freedom of association?

Boxer

From:	Gregory Shearman
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:56:49 +1100

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:17:45 +0000, Boxer wrote:

>
> "Tex" wrote in message
> news:41dfd528$1@news.comindico.com.au...
>>
>> "Chasing Kate" wrote in message
>> news:41DFD290.AF08337F@internode.on.net...
>>
>>
>>> I thought there was a time before HECS when uni was free or almost
>>> such....
>>
>> Uni has never been "free"
>>
>>
> Particularly with compulsory Student Union fees, what ever happened to
> freedom of association?

There is no freedom of association in Australia.

Union fees are only a tiny part of the general service fees paid by
students on entry to University.

Most of this money is spent on providing on-campus services to students.
They'll have to pay for these services one way or another.

--
Regards,
Gregory.
"Ding-a-Ding Dang, My Dang-a-Long Ling Long."

From:	Chasing Kate
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:24:19 +1030

Tex wrote:

> "Chasing Kate" wrote in message
> news:41DFD290.AF08337F@internode.on.net...
>
> > I thought there was a time before HECS when uni was free
> > or almost such....
>
> Uni has never been "free"

So what happened before HECS

From:	Denz
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:45:32 GMT

"Chasing Kate" wrote in message
news:41DFD7FB.31DAD264@internode.on.net...
> Tex wrote:
>
> > "Chasing Kate" wrote in message
> > news:41DFD290.AF08337F@internode.on.net...
> >
> > > I thought there was a time before HECS when uni was free
> > > or almost such....
> >
> > Uni has never been "free"
>
>
>
> So what happened before HECS

I believe uni was practically free

From:	Boxer
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:52:04 GMT

"Denz" wrote in message
news:woqEd.112854$K7.43502@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Chasing Kate" wrote in message
> news:41DFD7FB.31DAD264@internode.on.net...
>> Tex wrote:
>>
>> > "Chasing Kate" wrote in message
>> > news:41DFD290.AF08337F@internode.on.net...
>> >
>> > > I thought there was a time before HECS when uni was free
>> > > or almost such....
>> >
>> > Uni has never been "free"
>>
>>
>>
>> So what happened before HECS
>
> I believe uni was practically free

Not quite.

Many fees and charges including the outrageous compulsory Student Union
fees.

Boxer

From:	Tex
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:48:57 GMT

"Chasing Kate" wrote in message
news:41DFD7FB.31DAD264@internode.on.net...

> > Uni has never been "free"
>
> So what happened before HECS

Other taxpayers paid for the "free" education (in essence, working-class
parents paid to send middle-class kids to Uni)

From:	Chasing Kate
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:48:04 +1030

Tex wrote:

> "Chasing Kate" wrote in message
> news:41DFD7FB.31DAD264@internode.on.net...
>
> > > Uni has never been "free"
> >
> > So what happened before HECS
>
> Other taxpayers paid for the "free" education (in essence, working-class
> parents paid to send middle-class kids to Uni)

I get that ... So what do you mean? Did they pay their own fees
and such. How did it all work?

From:	Boxer
Subject:	Re: Ya gotta love the right wing.
Date:	Sat, 08 Jan 2005 04:53:16 GMT

"Chasing Kate" wrote in message
news:41DF4A68.295C73BB@internode.on.net...
> Geez what do these people want removal of HECS and
> back to the old Labor days of free university and lots
> and lots of "professional students?"
>
> Isn't it true that in those days lots of students just
> did course after course after course hence that nickname?

Many still do.

Boxer