"Ned Latham" wrote :
> "Tomasso vs noise" wrote
>> "Ned Latham" wrote=3D20
>> ...
>> Maybe. There are degrees of corruption, and degrees of reward. Faking
>> an individual vote, where margins are the order of 1000 to 100000 is
>> irrelevant, BUT hacking block votes, or corrupting the link between =
the
>> "candidate chosen" vs "the candidate the vote was counted for" are =
real
>> issues.
>=20
> "Block votes" are something beyond my ken. I don't even know what you
> mean by them. As I see it, all voting is (has to be) individual.

My fault. I was thinking more widely than Australian Elections. =
Specifically
things like shareholder voting (where proxy blocks are common), union
elections (where delegation is common), and some of those aggregated
kinds of decision systems where each committee forms a view and votes
as a block.

The shareholder one is relevant ATM. The way tallies are aggregated in
Oz has some potential for problems (but I don't recall any. =
Pre-selection
is an entirely different issue).

> Once a vote is delivered, it gets counted. Hacking the delivery system
> means intercepting individual votes. Much effort for extremely meagre
> gain. Hacking the identity checks, the count and so on means hacking
> the running code.

Yes, agree that hacking at the level of individual vote is very low =
return.

Hacking at the aggregation points can be. This is outside your basic
assumptions. However, the assumption of counting each vote individually
can break down. Votes get processed (ie, binned - yes, the technical =
word
is bin, although paper votes go into piles) locally, and the local =
results sent=20
centrally for aggregating/summing. This process can be corrupted by:

1. filtering the bins (wrong counts as they are made).
2. losing bins (eg, periodically zeroing some bins =3D missed counts).
3. multiple counting
4. multiple passing on of counts
5. attributing counts for bin Y to candidate/position Z.
6. fake counts.
7. maybe others I haven't noted.

Yes, software can guard against this (and ultimately reconcile with unit
records =3D individual votes).=20

[The allusion to banking isn't quite right, as votes are confidential, =
but
in banking, Account ID or Customer ID plus other details carry
through with transactions. You can reverse a banking transaction,
but not a secret vote].

> But of course there's no reason to allow *anyone* access to running
> totals.

There needs to be protocols which ensure single counting (ie, that no =
votes
are counted more than once), counts from all bins, etc (ie, that no =
votes are=20
counted zero times), and that the count goes to the right =
candidate/position.

Those protocols have access to either running totals or meta-data about =
them...

> But that would require hacking the running code.

Yes. Espec risky if code is not open source.

>> [Conventional
>> voting deals with this ONLY because the number of polling stations is
>> fairly small].
>=20
> How does "just one" sound?

Ideal.

>> Open source =3D=3D More trust.
>=20
> King oath.

:-)

Tomasso.

From:	Ned Latham
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	23 Dec 2004 10:53:35 +1050

"Tomasso vs noise" wrote in :
> Ned Latham wrote :
> > "Tomasso vs noise" wrote:
> > > Ned Latham wrote:
> > > ...
> > > Maybe. There are degrees of corruption, and degrees of reward. Faking
> > > an individual vote, where margins are the order of 1000 to 100000 is
> > > irrelevant, BUT hacking block votes, or corrupting the link between
> > > the "candidate chosen" vs "the candidate the vote was counted for"
> > > are real issues.
> >
> > "Block votes" are something beyond my ken. I don't even know what
> > you mean by them. As I see it, all voting is (has to be) individual.
>
> My fault. I was thinking more widely than Australian Elections.
> Specifically things like shareholder voting (where proxy blocks
> are common), union elections (where delegation is common), and
> some of those aggregated kinds of decision systems where each
> committee forms a view and votes as a block.
>
> The shareholder one is relevant ATM. The way tallies are aggregated
> in Oz has some potential for problems (but I don't recall any.
> Pre-selection is an entirely different issue).
>
> > Once a vote is delivered, it gets counted. Hacking the delivery system
> > means intercepting individual votes. Much effort for extremely meagre
> > gain. Hacking the identity checks, the count and so on means hacking
> > the running code.
>
> Yes, agree that hacking at the level of individual vote is very low
> return.
>
> Hacking at the aggregation points can be. This is outside your basic
> assumptions. However, the assumption of counting each vote individually
> can break down. Votes get processed (ie, binned - yes, the technical
> word is bin, although paper votes go into piles) locally, and the local
> results sent centrally for aggregating/summing. This process can be
> corrupted by:
>
> 1. filtering the bins (wrong counts as they are made).
> 2. losing bins (eg, periodically zeroing some bins = missed counts).
> 3. multiple counting
> 4. multiple passing on of counts
> 5. attributing counts for bin Y to candidate/position Z.
> 6. fake counts.
> 7. maybe others I haven't noted.

All of that is outside my basic assumptions. They and the method I have
in mind need to be tabled:

1. The only types of vote being considered are referenda and election
to political office;

2. The voter doesn't go to a voting booth - (s)he connects to the
vote-collection agency via TCP/IP. If they don't have a computer
at home, they go to a library, a Post Office, a school, or an
internet cafe (oops: there's a bit of infrastructure required
for those options). In Oz, the agency is the AEC (and that's
also an assumption when the topic restricts itself to Oz).
Traffic on the connection is encrypted;

3. For each vote, the database is virtually static, consisting of:

a. A table of registered voters copied from permanent records.
One column only is writeable: a Boolean value initially FALSE,
settable to TRUE, to record that the voter has voted;

b. A table of issues or candidates, depending on the vote type
created for the vote.

With referenda, two columns only are writeable, numeric values
initially set to zero, one each for "aye" and "nay", incremented
approriately as each voter casts their vote.

With elections in Oz, the number of writeable columns equals
the number of candidates for the relevant seat. Again, they're
numeric values initially set to zero. Left to right (or in some
other well-defined order), they represent the preference order,
and with each voter are incremented, one per candidate, according
to the preferences given by the voter.

(The increment is the constant value 1.)

4. The voter connects to the process managing database A and having no
access to database B, which verifies their identity and eligibility,
than passes the connection but nothing more to the process managing
database B and having no access to database A. That process records
the vote, then passes the connection but nothing more back to the
first process, which marks the voter off as having voted and ends
the connection.

5. When the voting period is over, the running totals are summed
according to the rules apllicable to the election type. The result
is known immediately after voting closes.

Database A is discarded (perhaps after transferring a list of
non-voters) and database B is archived.

Given that simple overview, plenty of problems are discernable (broken
connections, for example), but they're all manageable. With the whole
thing coded open source, it's easily verifiable, and because of its
modularity and the access and message restrictions, attempted hacks
would stick out like dog's balls.

(And when it comes down to it, about the only thing necessary to make
it handle block votes is make the increment a variable instead of the
constant value 1 and add some code to manage verifying it.)

> Yes, software can guard against this (and ultimately reconcile with unit
> records = individual votes).
>
> [The allusion to banking isn't quite right, as votes are confidential,
> but in banking, Account ID or Customer ID plus other details carry
> through with transactions. You can reverse a banking transaction,
> but not a secret vote].

I mentioned banking only to point out that the problems of security and
data integrity are manageable.

> > But of course there's no reason to allow *anyone* access to running
> > totals.
>
> There needs to be protocols which ensure single counting (ie, that no
> votes are counted more than once), counts from all bins, etc (ie, that
> no votes are counted zero times), and that the count goes to the right
> candidate/position.

Given the above database design, those are all just programming issues,
and very basic ones at that.

Yair, yair, I know: "design" is a pretty grand word for the outline above.
Still...

> Those protocols have access to either running totals or meta-data about
> them...

Nope. The database design solves that problem. All the code determining
the result needs is read-only access, after voting has closed, to the
final values of what were the running totals in database B.

> > But that would require hacking the running code.
>
> Yes. Espec risky if code is not open source.

Gotta be open source. Can't ever trust secret code.

> > > [Conventional
> > > voting deals with this ONLY because the number of polling stations is
> > > fairly small].
> >
> > How does "just one" sound?
>
> Ideal.

For Oz, it's the AEC network. (Oops, another infrastructure requirement.)

----snip----

Ned
--
True Blue FAQ:
Public key: http://pgp.mit.edu/ http://www.keyserver.net/en/
Fingerprint: D17C FDD5 BBA8 8687 42E3 C8F2 C9FB 0314 E17A 0CD7

From:	Tomasso at that secure place
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:30:42 +1100

"Ned Latham" wrote in message =
news:slrncsk408.ei0.ned@arthur.valhalla.oz...
> "Tomasso vs noise" wrote in =

:
>...
> All of that is outside my basic assumptions. They and the method I =
have
> in mind need to be tabled:
>=20
> 1. The only types of vote being considered are referenda and election
> to political office;

OK. Requires electoral role validation only.

> 2. The voter doesn't go to a voting booth - (s)he connects to the
> vote-collection agency via TCP/IP. If they don't have a computer
> at home, they go to a library, a Post Office, a school, or an
> internet cafe (oops: there's a bit of infrastructure required
> for those options). In Oz, the agency is the AEC (and that's
> also an assumption when the topic restricts itself to Oz).
> Traffic on the connection is encrypted;

OK. https and basic infrastructure should be up to it. But worth testing =
I suggest.

> 3. For each vote, the database is virtually static, consisting of:
>=20
> a. A table of registered voters copied from permanent records.
> One column only is writeable: a Boolean value initially FALSE,
> settable to TRUE, to record that the voter has voted;

That's models the "mark on paper method". There my be contention issues
but basically sounds.

> b. A table of issues or candidates, depending on the vote type
> created for the vote.
>=20
> With referenda, two columns only are writeable, numeric values
> initially set to zero, one each for "aye" and "nay", incremented
> approriately as each voter casts their vote.
>=20
> With elections in Oz, the number of writeable columns equals
> the number of candidates for the relevant seat. Again, they're
> numeric values initially set to zero. Left to right (or in some
> other well-defined order), they represent the preference order,
> and with each voter are incremented, one per candidate, according
> to the preferences given by the voter.

I accept this per se, but see it as the "best" place to hack...

> (The increment is the constant value 1.)
>=20
> 4. The voter connects to the process managing database A and having no
> access to database B, which verifies their identity and eligibility,
> than passes the connection but nothing more to the process managing
> database B and having no access to database A. That process records
> the vote, then passes the connection but nothing more back to the
> first process, which marks the voter off as having voted and ends
> the connection.

One assumption is that the person wished to vote formally/correctly. The
current position is that the vote has to be marked off the electoral =
role,
not that they have to vote correctly. Can they vote "Donald Duck", or
"Fuck it", or "" as they may now?

> 5. When the voting period is over, the running totals are summed
> according to the rules apllicable to the election type. The result
> is known immediately after voting closes.
>=20
> Database A is discarded (perhaps after transferring a list of
> non-voters) and database B is archived.

Well database A is inspected, and fine notices/etc issued, etc.

> Given that simple overview, plenty of problems are discernable (broken
> connections, for example), but they're all manageable. With the whole
> thing coded open source, it's easily verifiable, and because of its
> modularity and the access and message restrictions, attempted hacks
> would stick out like dog's balls.
>=20
> (And when it comes down to it, about the only thing necessary to make
> it handle block votes is make the increment a variable instead of the
> constant value 1 and add some code to manage verifying it.)

I'm concerned, not with this basic spec, but how some bunch of PS morons
may implement it. Mr H Snape-MacKay might be an example of such a
moron, or may be inclined to subvert the process (and indeed, may be
involved on BOTH sides of the fence). Read-only/locked tables, and
clean/open_source code can protect against that, IF the morons don't
decide on an _efficient_ alternative (which breaks some rules), or some
nasty piece is in the loop...

>> There needs to be protocols which ensure single counting (ie, that no
>> votes are counted more than once), counts from all bins, etc (ie, =
that
>> no votes are counted zero times), and that the count goes to the =
right
>> candidate/position.
>=20
> Given the above database design, those are all just programming =
issues,
> and very basic ones at that.

I grasped that initially. Then I put on the hat of an evil corrupted =
bastard
(something I am not, but something, at least in one role I carry out, I =
simulate),
and imagine how they might 'cheat'.=20

I also agree that simple is better here...

> Yair, yair, I know: "design" is a pretty grand word for the outline =
above.
> Still...

Repeat: I also agree that simple is better here...

> Nope. The database design solves that problem. All the code =
determining
> the result needs is read-only access, after voting has closed, to the
> final values of what were the running totals in database B.
>=20
>> > But that would require hacking the running code.
>>
>> Yes. Espec risky if code is not open source.
>=20
> Gotta be open source. Can't ever trust secret code.

tick,

> For Oz, it's the AEC network. (Oops, another infrastructure =
requirement.)

I don't actually know it. How many staff, and what are their names and =
addresses? :-)

OK, I believe I could design a management system that could sufficiently =
validate
the network against bastard staff. But could they?

Tomasso - who has enjoyed this discussion. Maybe this WILL happen.

From:	Harry Snape
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:32:48 +1100

Tomasso at that secure place wrote:
> "Ned Latham" wrote in message news:slrncsk408.ei0.ned@arthur.valhalla.oz...
>
>>"Tomasso vs noise" wrote in :
>>...
>>All of that is outside my basic assumptions. They and the method I have
>>in mind need to be tabled:
>>
>>1. The only types of vote being considered are referenda and election
>> to political office;
>
>
> OK. Requires electoral role validation only.

Great plan, the electoral role is publicly available.
The information is relatively easy to obtain in other ways.
So your plan is to rely on an authentication step that can be spoofed en
mass, So your system "works" as long as noone wants to deliberately
disrupt the election process. Cloud cuckoo land, the pair of you.

>
>>2. The voter doesn't go to a voting booth - (s)he connects to the
>> vote-collection agency via TCP/IP. If they don't have a computer
>> at home, they go to a library, a Post Office, a school, or an
>> internet cafe (oops: there's a bit of infrastructure required
>> for those options). In Oz, the agency is the AEC (and that's
>> also an assumption when the topic restricts itself to Oz).
>> Traffic on the connection is encrypted;
>
>
> OK. https and basic infrastructure should be up to it. But worth testing I suggest.

Yup, use that Internet Exploder, I'm sure noone could possibly record
your keystrokes and find out how you vote. I mean if that were possible
banks would be reporting keyboard sniffers are causing problems to
online banking ...

>
>>3. For each vote, the database is virtually static, consisting of:
>>
>> a. A table of registered voters copied from permanent records.
>> One column only is writeable: a Boolean value initially FALSE,
>> settable to TRUE, to record that the voter has voted;
>
>
> That's models the "mark on paper method". There my be contention issues
> but basically sounds.

Wow, Kleetus and Jimbob know how to toggle a database boolean. What
manner of scientific breakthroughs can't these two defeat!

>
>
>> b. A table of issues or candidates, depending on the vote type
>> created for the vote.
>>
>> With referenda, two columns only are writeable, numeric values
>> initially set to zero, one each for "aye" and "nay", incremented
>> approriately as each voter casts their vote.
>>
>> With elections in Oz, the number of writeable columns equals
>> the number of candidates for the relevant seat. Again, they're
>> numeric values initially set to zero. Left to right (or in some
>> other well-defined order), they represent the preference order,
>> and with each voter are incremented, one per candidate, according
>> to the preferences given by the voter.
>
>
> I accept this per se, but see it as the "best" place to hack...

But you can't hack it because Ned has read the source code a few months
earlier and has a strong and earnest belief that that code is
representative of the machine code currently executing on the system.
This belief is so strong that it overcomes any efforts by hackers,
insiders or errors of logic. Believe it, it is your only consolation.

>
>> (The increment is the constant value 1.)
>>
>>4. The voter connects to the process managing database A and having no
>> access to database B, which verifies their identity and eligibility,
>> than passes the connection but nothing more to the process managing
>> database B and having no access to database A. That process records
>> the vote, then passes the connection but nothing more back to the
>> first process, which marks the voter off as having voted and ends
>> the connection.
>
>
> One assumption is that the person wished to vote formally/correctly. The
> current position is that the vote has to be marked off the electoral role,
> not that they have to vote correctly. Can they vote "Donald Duck", or
> "Fuck it", or "" as they may now?

Does it matter? Ned's system allows someone to modify your vote, so your
intention is irrelevant.

>
>
>>5. When the voting period is over, the running totals are summed
>> according to the rules apllicable to the election type. The result
>> is known immediately after voting closes.
>>
>> Database A is discarded (perhaps after transferring a list of
>> non-voters) and database B is archived.
>
>
> Well database A is inspected, and fine notices/etc issued, etc.
>
>
>>Given that simple overview, plenty of problems are discernable (broken
>>connections, for example), but they're all manageable. With the whole
>>thing coded open source, it's easily verifiable, and because of its
>>modularity and the access and message restrictions, attempted hacks
>>would stick out like dog's balls.
>>
>>(And when it comes down to it, about the only thing necessary to make
>>it handle block votes is make the increment a variable instead of the
>>constant value 1 and add some code to manage verifying it.)
>
>
> I'm concerned, not with this basic spec, but how some bunch of PS morons
> may implement it. Mr H Snape-MacKay might be an example of such a

I doubt that Peter MacKay would be stupid enough to even start on
something as hare-brained as what you two have come up with.
Poor Tomato, his paranoia is driving him to conclude I am Peter Mackay.
What a loser.

> moron, or may be inclined to subvert the process (and indeed, may be
> involved on BOTH sides of the fence). Read-only/locked tables, and
> clean/open_source code can protect against that, IF the morons don't
> decide on an _efficient_ alternative (which breaks some rules), or some
> nasty piece is in the loop...

How would you know? Oh I remember, you get to read the source code of
something they say is running ... losers.

>
>
>>>There needs to be protocols which ensure single counting (ie, that no
>>>votes are counted more than once), counts from all bins, etc (ie, that
>>>no votes are counted zero times), and that the count goes to the right
>>>candidate/position.
>>
>>Given the above database design, those are all just programming issues,
>>and very basic ones at that.
>
>
> I grasped that initially. Then I put on the hat of an evil corrupted bastard
(That will be the pointy hat they made you wear at school, right?)
> (something I am not, but something, at least in one role I carry out, I simulate),
> and imagine how they might 'cheat'.

Ooooo, how frightfully clever of you. Imagine that, testing how easy it
is to corrupt the process ... Sorry, you can't do that, Ned's system
relies on the AEC and the govt and anyone with access to the system to
be good guys. He also relies on a verification step that has never been
accomplished by any government, military or corporation.

> I also agree that simple is better here...

Well you two must be the best!

>
>>Yair, yair, I know: "design" is a pretty grand word for the outline above.
>>Still...
>
>
> Repeat: I also agree that simple is better here...

Stop it, you're making me cry with laughter!

>
>>Nope. The database design solves that problem. All the code determining
>>the result needs is read-only access, after voting has closed, to the
>>final values of what were the running totals in database B.
>>
>>
>>>>But that would require hacking the running code.
>>>
>>>Yes. Espec risky if code is not open source.
>>
>>Gotta be open source. Can't ever trust secret code.

Of course you can't actually verify what you are running through an
election but if it keeps the simpletons happy I'm sure the government
would be glad for you to read the source for a system you have no way of
guaranteeing is actually being used.

>
> tick,
>
>
>>For Oz, it's the AEC network. (Oops, another infrastructure requirement.)
>
>
> I don't actually know it. How many staff, and what are their names and addresses? :-)
>
> OK, I believe I could design a management system that could sufficiently validate
> the network against bastard staff. But could they?

Whoopdie do.
You can't stop the AEC from directly changing the system if they want
to. You need to trust them.
The current system doesn't allow the AEC to produce a fraudulent result.

> Tomasso - who has enjoyed this discussion. Maybe this WILL happen.

Nice one Kleetus, but I doubt that there is any chance of hill billies
being put in charge of an e-voting project. You two are just hilarious.

Even your pretentious pal Marky posted this two years ago:
"I never thought I'd see the day, but I agree with Snape. The only
way I could see an electronic vote come anywhere near secure is if
every voter was issued a public key. Then that fails anonymity,
and disenfranchises people who do not have access to technology."
(He then went on to show he know nothing about how random numbers are
generated in high security circumstances - he wanted to use /dev/random,
and claimed he saw patterns in key spaces, and mixed up the 128-bit
symmetric keys that are exchanged underneath SSL using 1024bit RSA. Dear
boy thought they used 128bit asymmetric keys)
By the way, the debate was mostly between myself and Peter Mackay, he
was arguing for something along the lines of what you propose. He
appears as clueless as you.

I believe we were debating about electronic voting where anonymity and
and verifiability are important. Why do you guys think they aren't?

From:	Mark Addinall
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:20:18 GMT

"Harry Snape" wrote in message
news:41cabaf1$0$4539$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Tomasso at that secure place wrote:
>> "Ned Latham" wrote in message
>> news:slrncsk408.ei0.ned@arthur.valhalla.oz...
>>
>>>"Tomasso vs noise" wrote in
>>>:
>>>...
>>>All of that is outside my basic assumptions. They and the method I have
>>>in mind need to be tabled:
>>>
>>>1. The only types of vote being considered are referenda and election
>>> to political office;
>>
>>
>> OK. Requires electoral role validation only.
>
> I doubt that Peter MacKay would be stupid enough to even start on
> something as hare-brained as what you two have come up with.
> Poor Tomato, his paranoia is driving him to conclude I am Peter Mackay.
> What a loser.

It might have something to do with your IP addresses seemingly
coming from the same room. Shrug.

>
> Even your pretentious pal Marky posted this two years ago:
> "I never thought I'd see the day, but I agree with Snape. The only
> way I could see an electronic vote come anywhere near secure is if
> every voter was issued a public key. Then that fails anonymity,
> and disenfranchises people who do not have access to technology."

Still true.

> (He then went on to show he know nothing about how random numbers

Hardy fucking har.

You have even been slapped by Ned. ROTFLMFAO!
What next "Snape". Cryptography for the long term unemployed?

Little tiny pyramids scattered around the city?

Ah, so funny.

Mark Addinall.

From:	Harry Snape
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:28:46 +1100

Mark Addinall wrote:
> "Harry Snape" wrote in message
> news:41cabaf1$0$4539$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
>>Tomasso at that secure place wrote:
>>
>>>"Ned Latham" wrote in message
>>>news:slrncsk408.ei0.ned@arthur.valhalla.oz...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tomasso vs noise" wrote in
>>>>:
>>>>...
>>>>All of that is outside my basic assumptions. They and the method I have
>>>>in mind need to be tabled:
>>>>
>>>>1. The only types of vote being considered are referenda and election
>>>> to political office;
>>>
>>>
>>>OK. Requires electoral role validation only.
>>
>>I doubt that Peter MacKay would be stupid enough to even start on
>>something as hare-brained as what you two have come up with.
>>Poor Tomato, his paranoia is driving him to conclude I am Peter Mackay.
>>What a loser.
>
>
>
> It might have something to do with your IP addresses seemingly
> coming from the same room. Shrug.

Really? When did this happen?
Another of your unsubstantiated lies?
Post the evidence Marky.

>
>
>>Even your pretentious pal Marky posted this two years ago:
>>"I never thought I'd see the day, but I agree with Snape. The only
>>way I could see an electronic vote come anywhere near secure is if
>>every voter was issued a public key. Then that fails anonymity,
>>and disenfranchises people who do not have access to technology."
>
>
>
> Still true.

Hmm, so here he agree with me.

>
>>(He then went on to show he know nothing about how random numbers
>
>
>
> Hardy fucking har.
>
> You have even been slapped by Ned. ROTFLMFAO!

Then here he claims that Ned has "slapped" me. Poor Marky can't even
maintain concentration across a few lines of text. So Marky if you agree
with what I am saying, exactly how is Ned slapping me?
You really aren't very bright are you Marky?

> What next "Snape". Cryptography for the long term unemployed?

Poor Marky, still smarting at his total capitulation when he tried to do
some basic cryptography. Made a right fool of himself. Then when he was
asked to prove it me wrong the best he could do was say "nope" and then
not post on that topic again.
Sad, sad, pathetic Marky.

>
> Little tiny pyramids scattered around the city?

Oooh! another insight into Marky's delusional mind. Seems he is having
visions again.

> Ah, so funny.
>
> Mark Addinall.
>
>

From:	Ned Latham
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	25 Dec 2004 11:01:45 +1050

Harry Snape wrote in <41cabaf1$0$4539$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
> "Tomasso at that secure place" wrote:
> > Ned Latham wrote:
> > > "Tomasso vs noise" wrote:
> > > ...
> > > All of that is outside my basic assumptions. They and the method I have
> > > in mind need to be tabled:
> > >
> > > 1. The only types of vote being considered are referenda and election
> > > to political office;
> >
> > OK. Requires electoral role validation only.
>
> Great plan, the electoral role is publicly available.
> The information is relatively easy to obtain in other ways.
> So your plan is to rely on an authentication step that can be spoofed
> en mass,

That's the way the present system works, clown. What makes you think that
identification has to *stay* at the level of "I'm me"?

----snip----

> > > 2. The voter doesn't go to a voting booth - (s)he connects to the
> > > vote-collection agency via TCP/IP. If they don't have a computer
> > > at home, they go to a library, a Post Office, a school, or an
> > > internet cafe (oops: there's a bit of infrastructure required
> > > for those options). In Oz, the agency is the AEC (and that's
> > > also an assumption when the topic restricts itself to Oz).
> > > Traffic on the connection is encrypted;
> >
> > OK. https and basic infrastructure should be up to it. But worth
> > testing I suggest.
>
> Yup, use that Internet Exploder, I'm sure noone could possibly record
> your keystrokes and find out how you vote.

And just imagine: with only eight or ten million helpers, (s)he could
crack every computer in the country and find out how everyone in the
country voted. Piece of cake.

Oops. What if the forms are randomised? How do you work out which boxes
the voter typed 1, 2, 3 and so on into?

> I mean if that were possible
> banks would be reporting keyboard sniffers are causing problems to
> online banking ...

The banks don't randomise their forms. Crack one computer and get
someone's account details. Could be worth millions. What's the value
of an inconclusive vote reading, Harry?

And your problems don't end there. What do you do about it if the
AEC adds a dummy graphic alongside each candidate's name, mimicking
the boxes, and advises voters to add a layer of security to the
transaction by mixing up clicks in the boxes and on the dummy
graphics with tabbing from box to box?

To get a conclusive reading, your snoop has to be able to read mouse
movements and clicks, *and* coordinate them with the keyclicks, and
transmit all that stuff to you, *and* retransmit to you everything the
AEC sent to your target so that the other info makes sense. Just how
*big* is your little snoop, Harry? And just how much extra traffic is
it generating? (How much extra traffic did inserting it generate?)

How hard would it be to detect that extra traffic, Harry? And more
to the point, how hard would it be to track you down?

> > > 3. For each vote, the database is virtually static, consisting of:
> > >
> > > a. A table of registered voters copied from permanent records.
> > > One column only is writeable: a Boolean value initially FALSE,
> > > settable to TRUE, to record that the voter has voted;
> >
> > That's models the "mark on paper method". There my be contention issues
> > but basically sounds.
>
> Wow, Kleetus and Jimbob know how to toggle a database boolean. What
> manner of scientific breakthroughs can't these two defeat!

I gather you can't find anything that even *you* think might pass as
a rational criticism of it. We'll take it as accepted then, shall we?

> > > b. A table of issues or candidates, depending on the vote type
> > > created for the vote.
> > >
> > > With referenda, two columns only are writeable, numeric values
> > > initially set to zero, one each for "aye" and "nay", incremented
> > > approriately as each voter casts their vote.
> > >
> > > With elections in Oz, the number of writeable columns equals
> > > the number of candidates for the relevant seat. Again, they're
> > > numeric values initially set to zero. Left to right (or in some
> > > other well-defined order), they represent the preference order,
> > > and with each voter are incremented, one per candidate, according
> > > to the preferences given by the voter.
> >
> > I accept this per se, but see it as the "best" place to hack...

---babble dealt with in another post snipped----

> Even your pretentious pal Marky posted this two years ago:
> "I never thought I'd see the day, but I agree with Snape. The only
> way I could see an electronic vote come anywhere near secure is if
> every voter was issued a public key. Then that fails anonymity,
> and disenfranchises people who do not have access to technology."

Apache-SSL, anyone?

----snip----

Ned
--
True Blue FAQ:
Public key: http://pgp.mit.edu/ http://www.keyserver.net/en/
Fingerprint: D17C FDD5 BBA8 8687 42E3 C8F2 C9FB 0314 E17A 0CD7

From:	Jura Koch-Sacher
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:12:57 +1100

"Tomasso at that secure place" wrote in message
<41ca5804_1@news.iprimus.com.au>:
[-- 8< --]
>
>I'm concerned, not with this basic spec, but how some bunch of PS morons
>may implement it. Mr H Snape-MacKay might be an example of such a
>moron, or may be inclined to subvert the process (and indeed, may be
>involved on BOTH sides of the fence).

Completely OT to this discussion, and just before I disappear from
this thread after re--ing Ned, but 'Harry Snape' isn't Peter
Mackay. Here's some (circumstantial) evidence regarding his
identity...
Message-ID: <39inf0h47g863plu0jbk4pk1kc78i9ttvg@4ax.com>
[-- 8< --]

From:	Tomasso vs noise
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:42:25 GMT

"Jura Koch-Sacher" wrote in message =
news:b02ls0pq8d7hah5orkqnf0mmu369m8gp0u@4ax.com...
> "Tomasso at that secure place" wrote in message
> <41ca5804_1@news.iprimus.com.au>:
> [-- 8< --]
>>
>>I'm concerned, not with this basic spec, but how some bunch of PS =
morons
>>may implement it. Mr H Snape-MacKay might be an example of such a
>>moron, or may be inclined to subvert the process (and indeed, may be
>>involved on BOTH sides of the fence).
>=20
> Completely OT to this discussion, and just before I disappear from
> this thread after re--ing Ned, but 'Harry Snape' isn't Peter
> Mackay. Here's some (circumstantial) evidence regarding his
> identity...
> Message-ID: <39inf0h47g863plu0jbk4pk1kc78i9ttvg@4ax.com>
> [-- 8< --]

Hmmm.

If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...

No, let me start again:

If it is indistinguishable from any of a number fermenting cohort of =
alienated
"bovver boys", there is not point is aiming more precisely. They are =
Borg...

Tomasso.

From:	Jura Koch-Sacher
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:14:47 +1100

"Tomasso vs noise" wrote in message

:

>
>
>"Jura Koch-Sacher" wrote in message news:b02ls0pq8d7hah5orkqnf0mmu369m8gp0u@4ax.com...
>> "Tomasso at that secure place" wrote in message
>> <41ca5804_1@news.iprimus.com.au>:
>> [-- 8< --]
>>>
>>>I'm concerned, not with this basic spec, but how some bunch of PS morons
>>>may implement it. Mr H Snape-MacKay might be an example of such a
>>>moron, or may be inclined to subvert the process (and indeed, may be
>>>involved on BOTH sides of the fence).
>>
>> Completely OT to this discussion, and just before I disappear from
>> this thread after re--ing Ned, but 'Harry Snape' isn't Peter
>> Mackay. Here's some (circumstantial) evidence regarding his
>> identity...
>> Message-ID: <39inf0h47g863plu0jbk4pk1kc78i9ttvg@4ax.com>
>> [-- 8< --]
>
>Hmmm.
>
>If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...
>
If it nukes posts like a troll trying to cover its path...

>No, let me start again:
>
>If it is indistinguishable from any of a number fermenting cohort of alienated
>"bovver boys", there is not point is aiming more precisely. They are Borg...
>
Funny. I thought Ray was Filipino, not Swedish or Maltese.[*]

Whatever. I just like watching them squirm as they try to bullshit
their way out of the web of their own weaving.
-----
[*] (Totally OT) Embarrassing Work Moment #4300221: I worked as a
payroll clerk for Aust Post in the 1980s. A payee named Borg turns up
one day. He has a swarthy complexion, southern European accent etc. On
his way out, one of my co-workers asks him: "Are you related to
Bjorn?"

From:	Harry Snape
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:59:12 +1100

Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
> "Tomasso vs noise" wrote in message
> :
>
>
>>
>>"Jura Koch-Sacher" wrote in message news:b02ls0pq8d7hah5orkqnf0mmu369m8gp0u@4ax.com...
>>
>>>"Tomasso at that secure place" wrote in message
>>><41ca5804_1@news.iprimus.com.au>:
>>>[-- 8< --]
>>>
>>>>I'm concerned, not with this basic spec, but how some bunch of PS morons
>>>>may implement it. Mr H Snape-MacKay might be an example of such a
>>>>moron, or may be inclined to subvert the process (and indeed, may be
>>>>involved on BOTH sides of the fence).
>>>
>>>Completely OT to this discussion, and just before I disappear from
>>>this thread after re--ing Ned, but 'Harry Snape' isn't Peter
>>>Mackay. Here's some (circumstantial) evidence regarding his
>>>identity...
>>>Message-ID: <39inf0h47g863plu0jbk4pk1kc78i9ttvg@4ax.com>
>>>[-- 8< --]
>>
>>Hmmm.
>>
>>If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...
>>
>
> If it nukes posts like a troll trying to cover its path...

If it is too stupid to look and makes false accusations then what is it?
Here is the post I was supposed to have nuked, taken from Google groups
using the message ID you supplied:
Message-ID: <3C777FE6.B45DDE8@commsecure.com.au>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:41:26 +1100
From: Ray Loyzaga
Organization: CommSecure Limited
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Black Shirts "seen off"
References:
<3C76DBFB.95436D6B@commsecure.com.au>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 45
NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.78.35
X-Trace: 1014464326 12812 203.164.78.35

Youngy wrote:
>
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:30:02 +1100, "Mango"
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ray Loyzaga" wrote in message
> >news:3C76DBFB.95436D6B@commsecure.com.au...
> >>
> >>
> >> Even the best reports are now indicating that parts of the Government

etc. etc.

>
>
>>No, let me start again:
>>
>>If it is indistinguishable from any of a number fermenting cohort of alienated
>>"bovver boys", there is not point is aiming more precisely. They are Borg...
>>
>
> Funny. I thought Ray was Filipino, not Swedish or Maltese.[*]

I'm glad for him.

>
> Whatever. I just like watching them squirm as they try to bullshit
> their way out of the web of their own weaving.

So bullshit your way out of your baseless accusation that I deleted that
post.
We can see why you had to change your first name from Ima.

> -----
> [*] (Totally OT) Embarrassing Work Moment #4300221: I worked as a
> payroll clerk for Aust Post in the 1980s. A payee named Borg turns up
> one day. He has a swarthy complexion, southern European accent etc. On
> his way out, one of my co-workers asks him: "Are you related to
> Bjorn?"

I knew an eastern european who's father changed his name to Borg because
he liked the sound of the name and his workmates just shortened his name
to Borg. I think Bjorn was active at the time.
I believe the original name started with a Borj followed by a few
hundred consonants.

From:	Jura Koch-Sacher
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:11:05 +1100

Harry Snape wrote in message
<41cc0490$0$24378$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:

>Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
[-- 8< --]
>>
>> Whatever. I just like watching them squirm as they try to bullshit
>> their way out of the web of their own weaving.
>
>So bullshit your way out of your baseless accusation that I deleted that
>post.

Once more: it wasn't there when I looked for it on Friday. Whether it
was an error on my part (cut/pasting less than the full Message-ID) or
a server problem at Google's end, I don't know.

>We can see why you had to change your first name from Ima.
>
No; that's my twin sister. As you can imagine, she was a very popular
girl in school. Before you ask, our parents names are Watta and
Sheeza.
[-- 8< --]

From:	Harry Snape
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:15:11 +1100

Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
> Harry Snape wrote in message
> <41cc0490$0$24378$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>
>
>>Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
>
> [-- 8< --]
>
>>>Whatever. I just like watching them squirm as they try to bullshit
>>>their way out of the web of their own weaving.
>>
>>So bullshit your way out of your baseless accusation that I deleted that
>>post.
>
>
> Once more: it wasn't there when I looked for it on Friday. Whether it
> was an error on my part (cut/pasting less than the full Message-ID) or
> a server problem at Google's end, I don't know.
>
>
>>We can see why you had to change your first name from Ima.
>>
>
> No; that's my twin sister. As you can imagine, she was a very popular
> girl in school. Before you ask, our parents names are Watta and
> Sheeza.
> [-- 8< --]
I'm sure that you've always been a Koch-Sacher and come from a long line
of Koch-Sachers.

From:	fasgnâdh
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Wed, 29 Dec 2004 02:47:53 GMT

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:15:11 +1100, Harry Snape
wrote in message <41ce56ef$0$1123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:

>Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
>> Harry Snape wrote in message
>> <41cc0490$0$24378$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>>
>>
>>>Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
>>
>> [-- 8< --]
>>
>>>>Whatever. I just like watching them squirm as they try to bullshit
>>>>their way out of the web of their own weaving.
>>>
>>>So bullshit your way out of your baseless accusation that I deleted that
>>>post.
>>
>>
>> Once more: it wasn't there when I looked for it on Friday. Whether it
>> was an error on my part (cut/pasting less than the full Message-ID) or
>> a server problem at Google's end, I don't know.
>>
>>
>>>We can see why you had to change your first name from Ima.
>>>
>>
>> No; that's my twin sister. As you can imagine, she was a very popular
>> girl in school. Before you ask, our parents names are Watta and
>> Sheeza.
>> [-- 8< --]
>I'm sure that you've always been a Koch-Sacher and come from a long line
>of Koch-Sachers.

A very obsessive line of Koch-Sachers too, it seems. I mean, for
Pete's or Harry's or Ray's or even Fuck's sake, who gives a monkey's
if a usenet poster changes or doesn't change his nom de kybd?

Hi Ned! Just to let you know that I haven't boycotted your exclusive
little newsfroup, nor do I intend to. :) Hang in there, buddy!

--

fasgnâdh - the Thinking Man's Seppo Renfors.

A True Gentleman.- not many of us left.

Now with extra reasonableness and 10% more humility.

From:	Jura Koch-Sacher
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:21:38 +1100

[a.c.t-b flung]
fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
<41d21c05.6303494@news.dodo.com.au>:

>On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:15:11 +1100, Harry Snape
>wrote in message <41ce56ef$0$1123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
[-- 8< --]
>>I'm sure that you've always been a Koch-Sacher and come from a long line
>>of Koch-Sachers.
>
>A very obsessive line of Koch-Sachers too, it seems. I mean, for
>Pete's or Harry's or Ray's or even Fuck's sake, who gives a monkey's
>if a usenet poster changes or doesn't change his nom de kybd?
>
Speaking (typing?) of "obsessive"... We seem to be having a discussion
at one remove, using Ray - oops, sorry - Harry's messages as
intermediaries. Sort of misses the point of having me in your
killfile, don't you think, O Circumflexual One?

>Hi Ned! Just to let you know that I haven't boycotted your exclusive
>little newsfroup, nor do I intend to. :) Hang in there, buddy!

He reads aus.politics too, so there's no reason to drag
aus.culture.truly-bigoted into it.

From:	fasgnâdh
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:52:17 GMT

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:21:38 +1100, Jura Koch-Sacher

wrote in message
:

>[a.c.t-b flung]
>fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
><41d21c05.6303494@news.dodo.com.au>:
>
>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:15:11 +1100, Harry Snape
>>wrote in message <41ce56ef$0$1123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>[-- 8< --]
>>>I'm sure that you've always been a Koch-Sacher and come from a long line
>>>of Koch-Sachers.
>>
>>A very obsessive line of Koch-Sachers too, it seems. I mean, for
>>Pete's or Harry's or Ray's or even Fuck's sake, who gives a monkey's
>>if a usenet poster changes or doesn't change his nom de kybd?
>>
>Speaking (typing?) of "obsessive"... We seem to be having a discussion
>at one remove, using Ray - oops, sorry - Harry's messages as
>intermediaries.

Actually, if you read carefully, you will see that I was addressing my
remarks to Lord Harry.

>Sort of misses the point of having me in your
>killfile,

In what way, precisely?

> don't you think, O Circumflexual One?

Circumflexual One!! Oh John, how spiffingly humourous that remark was.
What a puckish sense of humour you have. Quite remarkably funny, that
was. Outstandingly funny, in fact. Superlative. Deliciously ironic.
Kewl, even. Circumflexual One indeed! Oh, laugh!

>
>>Hi Ned! Just to let you know that I haven't boycotted your exclusive
>>little newsfroup, nor do I intend to. :) Hang in there, buddy!
>
>He reads aus.politics too, so there's no reason to drag
>aus.culture.truly-bigoted into it.

Thank you for your opinion. I have given it the consideration that it
deserves.

Yo Ned! Keep up the fight! There'll be no boycotting of act-b as long
as I am capable of drawing a ragged breath...
--

fasgnâdh - the Thinking Man's Seppo Renfors.

A True Gentleman.- not many of us left.

Now with extra reasonableness and 10% more humility.

From:	Jura Koch-Sacher
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:07:26 +1100

[a.c.t-b flung, again. Grow up, Alan.]
fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
<41d8ef85.3807354@news.dodo.com.au>:

>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:21:38 +1100, Jura Koch-Sacher
> wrote in message
>:
>
>>[a.c.t-b flung]
>>fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
>><41d21c05.6303494@news.dodo.com.au>:
>>
>>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:15:11 +1100, Harry Snape
>>>wrote in message <41ce56ef$0$1123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>>[-- 8< --]
>>>>I'm sure that you've always been a Koch-Sacher and come from a long line
>>>>of Koch-Sachers.
>>>
>>>A very obsessive line of Koch-Sachers too, it seems. I mean, for
>>>Pete's or Harry's or Ray's or even Fuck's sake, who gives a monkey's
>>>if a usenet poster changes or doesn't change his nom de kybd?
>>>
>>Speaking (typing?) of "obsessive"... We seem to be having a discussion
>>at one remove, using Ray - oops, sorry - Harry's messages as
>>intermediaries.
>
>Actually, if you read carefully, you will see that I was addressing my
>remarks to Lord Harry.
>
They were *about* me, so I replied. Got it now?

>>Sort of misses the point of having me in your>>killfile,
>
>In what way, precisely?
>
I think you answered that question for yourself when you replied to me
directly.

>> don't you think, O Circumflexual One?
>
>Circumflexual One!! Oh John, how spiffingly humourous that remark was.
>What a puckish sense of humour you have. Quite remarkably funny, that
>was. Outstandingly funny, in fact. Superlative. Deliciously ironic.
>Kewl, even. Circumflexual One indeed! Oh, laugh!
>
You are very easily amused.
[-- 8< --]

From:	fasgnâdh
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:03:53 GMT

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:07:26 +1100,
Iser Koch-Sacher, AKA John Iser koffed,
scratched, grunted and then wrote in message
:

>[a.c.t-b flung, again. Grow up, Alan.]
>fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
><41d8ef85.3807354@news.dodo.com.au>:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:21:38 +1100, Jura Koch-Sacher
>> wrote in message
>>:
>>
>>>[a.c.t-b flung]
>>>fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
>>><41d21c05.6303494@news.dodo.com.au>:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:15:11 +1100, Harry Snape
>>>>wrote in message <41ce56ef$0$1123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>>>[-- 8< --]
>>>>>I'm sure that you've always been a Koch-Sacher and come from a long line
>>>>>of Koch-Sachers.
>>>>
>>>>A very obsessive line of Koch-Sachers too, it seems. I mean, for
>>>>Pete's or Harry's or Ray's or even Fuck's sake, who gives a monkey's
>>>>if a usenet poster changes or doesn't change his nom de kybd?
>>>>
>>>Speaking (typing?) of "obsessive"... We seem to be having a discussion
>>>at one remove, using Ray - oops, sorry - Harry's messages as
>>>intermediaries.
>>
>>Actually, if you read carefully, you will see that I was addressing my
>>remarks to Lord Harry.
>>
>They were *about* me, so I replied. Got it now?

So, if I am discussing you with someone else, then you take this as
being a discussion WITH you, rather than a discussion ABOUT you.

Gee, John, you are an unusual specimen. Have you consulted with a
mental health professional yet, or are you still trying to ... er ...
"manage" your problems yourself?

I'm sure that I am only one of many who have tried to convince you
that psychotherapy is not something that a DIY'er should attempt at
home.

>
>>>Sort of misses the point of having me in your>>killfile,
>>
>>In what way, precisely?
>>
>I think you answered that question for yourself when you replied to me
>directly.

Really? How so, John? You are not making yourself very clear there.

>
>>> don't you think, O Circumflexual One?
>>
>>Circumflexual One!! Oh John, how spiffingly humourous that remark was.
>>What a puckish sense of humour you have. Quite remarkably funny, that
>>was. Outstandingly funny, in fact. Superlative. Deliciously ironic.
>>Kewl, even. Circumflexual One indeed! Oh, laugh!
>>
>You are very easily amused.

Probably that's why I spend so much time taunting you.

Hey John, have you still got that kooky website of yours?

--

fasgnâdh - the Thinking Man's Seppo Renfors.

A True Gentleman.- not many of us left.

Now with extra reasonableness and 10% more humility.

From:	Ned Latham
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	1 Jan 2005 09:15:50 +1050

Alan Peyton-Smith, posting as "fasgnâdh", wrote
in <41da0b7e.32615704@news.dodo.com.au>:

Nothing relevant to act-b.

----snip----

Ned
--
True Blue FAQ:
Public key: http://pgp.mit.edu/ http://www.keyserver.net/en/
Fingerprint: D17C FDD5 BBA8 8687 42E3 C8F2 C9FB 0314 E17A 0CD7

From:	Jura Koch-Sacher
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:00:29 +1100

Jura Koch-Sacher wrote in message
:

>[a.c.t-b flung]
>fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
><41d21c05.6303494@news.dodo.com.au>:
>
>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:15:11 +1100, Harry Snape
>>wrote in message <41ce56ef$0$1123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>[-- 8< --]
>>>I'm sure that you've always been a Koch-Sacher and come from a long line
>>>of Koch-Sachers.
>>
>>A very obsessive line of Koch-Sachers too, it seems. I mean, for
>>Pete's or Harry's or Ray's or even Fuck's sake, who gives a monkey's
>>if a usenet poster changes or doesn't change his nom de kybd?
>>
>Speaking (typing?) of "obsessive"... We seem to be having a discussion
>at one remove, using Ray - oops, sorry - Harry's messages as
>intermediaries. Sort of misses the point of having me in your
>killfile, don't you think, O Circumflexual One?
>
Just to amplify on that point (while I wait for a long d/l to
complete)... I don't care what people call themselves online, but I
get slightly peeved at people who try to deny their previous
'incarnations'.

I admitted mine freely...
Message-ID:
....while you tried to deny one of yours, and I busted you accordingly:
Message-ID:

'Harry' has done the same - AFAICT, at least.

>>Hi Ned! Just to let you know that I haven't boycotted your exclusive
>>little newsfroup, nor do I intend to. :) Hang in there, buddy!
>
>He reads aus.politics too, so there's no reason to drag
>aus.culture.truly-bigoted into it.

Just to amplify on *that* point... While I disagree with Ned's imposed
'philosophy' for a.c.t-b and his 'NRTact-b' tactics, I agree with him
on the general principle of keeping groups on-topic and thus concise.

From:	fasgnâdh
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:52:12 GMT

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:00:29 +1100, Iser Koch-Sacher

wrote in message
<9vg4t0582lj5sco98lrs998t8js0or2f6b@4ax.com>:

>Jura Koch-Sacher wrote in message
>:
>
>>[a.c.t-b flung]
>>fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
>><41d21c05.6303494@news.dodo.com.au>:
>>
>>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:15:11 +1100, Harry Snape
>>>wrote in message <41ce56ef$0$1123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>>[-- 8< --]
>>>>I'm sure that you've always been a Koch-Sacher and come from a long line
>>>>of Koch-Sachers.
>>>
>>>A very obsessive line of Koch-Sachers too, it seems. I mean, for
>>>Pete's or Harry's or Ray's or even Fuck's sake, who gives a monkey's
>>>if a usenet poster changes or doesn't change his nom de kybd?
>>>
>>Speaking (typing?) of "obsessive"... We seem to be having a discussion
>>at one remove, using Ray - oops, sorry - Harry's messages as
>>intermediaries. Sort of misses the point of having me in your
>>killfile, don't you think, O Circumflexual One?
>>
>Just to amplify on that point (while I wait for a long d/l to
>complete)... I don't care what people call themselves online,

Mightily generous of you. No, really, I mean it.

>but I
>get slightly peeved at people who try to deny their previous
>'incarnations'.

Why?

>
>>>Hi Ned! Just to let you know that I haven't boycotted your exclusive
>>>little newsfroup, nor do I intend to. :) Hang in there, buddy!
>>
>>He reads aus.politics too, so there's no reason to drag
>>aus.culture.truly-bigoted into it.
>
>Just to amplify on *that* point... While I disagree with Ned's imposed
>'philosophy' for a.c.t-b

Well then in that case, perhaps you should address his points
sensibly, instead of simply hurling insults at him? You need to change
your "style" - simply hurling insults at someone whom you perceive to
be insufficiently PC, or insufficiently left-wing, does not cut it
anymore.

See below.

>and his 'NRTact-b' tactics, I agree with him
>on the general principle of keeping groups on-topic and thus concise.

Does this mean that you intend to start using aus.politics as a forum
in which to discuss issues relevant to politics in Australia?

--

fasgnâdh - the Thinking Man's Seppo Renfors.

A True Gentleman.- not many of us left.

Now with extra reasonableness and 10% more humility.

From:	Jura Koch-Sacher
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:09:58 +1100

[a.c.t-b flung. Just watch as Circumflex Boy here puts it back in.]
fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
<41d7eed6.3632564@news.dodo.com.au>:

>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:00:29 +1100, Iser Koch-Sacher
> wrote in message
><9vg4t0582lj5sco98lrs998t8js0or2f6b@4ax.com>:
>
>>Jura Koch-Sacher wrote in message
>>:
>>
>>>[a.c.t-b flung]
>>>fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
>>><41d21c05.6303494@news.dodo.com.au>:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:15:11 +1100, Harry Snape
>>>>wrote in message <41ce56ef$0$1123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>>>[-- 8< --]
>>>>>I'm sure that you've always been a Koch-Sacher and come from a long line
>>>>>of Koch-Sachers.
>>>>
>>>>A very obsessive line of Koch-Sachers too, it seems. I mean, for
>>>>Pete's or Harry's or Ray's or even Fuck's sake, who gives a monkey's
>>>>if a usenet poster changes or doesn't change his nom de kybd?
>>>>
>>>Speaking (typing?) of "obsessive"... We seem to be having a discussion
>>>at one remove, using Ray - oops, sorry - Harry's messages as
>>>intermediaries. Sort of misses the point of having me in your
>>>killfile, don't you think, O Circumflexual One?
>>>
>>Just to amplify on that point (while I wait for a long d/l to
>>complete)... I don't care what people call themselves online,
>
>Mightily generous of you. No, really, I mean it.
>
With a 'nym like mine, I'm not really in a position to judge.

One thing I *do* care about, though, is when stupid Mount Isa troppo
trolls appropriate someone else's 'nym, stick a circumflex on top of
one character and then kid themselves about how 'clever' they are.

Alan: I find cleverer things than you scurrying in my compost bin.

>>but I>>get slightly peeved at people who try to deny their previous
>>'incarnations'.
>
>Why?
>
Because the denial makes you a fucking LIAR, you dense clown.

>>
>>>>Hi Ned! Just to let you know that I haven't boycotted your exclusive
>>>>little newsfroup, nor do I intend to. :) Hang in there, buddy!
>>>
>>>He reads aus.politics too, so there's no reason to drag
>>>aus.culture.truly-bigoted into it.
>>
>>Just to amplify on *that* point... While I disagree with Ned's imposed
>>'philosophy' for a.c.t-b
>
>Well then in that case, perhaps you should address his points
>sensibly, instead of simply hurling insults at him?

There weren't any points *to* address, you stupid Mount Isa troppo
troll. Just the standard self-justifying gibberish - sort of like you,
really.

> You need to change>your "style"

You need to change your 'nym, O Net.Kooky One. Soon.

Getting tips on Usenet posting style from the APNKOTY 1996 - that's
just fan-fucking-tastic...
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7573/nk96.gif

While we're critiquing each other's style, here's my advice to you:
1. Get a hammer.
2. With it, break all your fingers and then your modem.
3. Dial up your nearest charity (you'll have to use your nose to press
the keys) and donate your computer to them.

Follow those steps, and the quality of your postings will improve
immeasurably.

> - simply hurling insults at someone whom you perceive to
>be insufficiently PC, or insufficiently left-wing, does not cut it
>anymore.
>
Get fucked you stupid Mount Isa troppo troll cunt.

>See below.
>
It was three lines down, you stupid Mount Isa troppo troll cunt, so I
can't really help *but* see it. Fuck, but you're a posturing waste of
bandwidth and hard-drive space.

>>and his 'NRTact-b' tactics, I agree with him
>>on the general principle of keeping groups on-topic and thus concise.
>
>Does this mean that you intend to start using aus.politics as a forum
>in which to discuss issues relevant to politics in Australia?

When someone worth discussing them with comes along, sure. When all I
get is self-absorbed, brain-dead, cross-posting knuckle-draggers like
you and Neddy Landgoon it's a bit hard to have a meaningful, informed
discussion.

Oh, almost forgot: get fucked you stupid Mount Isa troppo troll cunt.

From:	fasgnâdh
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:03:46 GMT

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:09:58 +1100, Iser Koch-Sacher, AKA John Iser
, AKA screeched :

>[a.c.t-b flung. Just watch as Circumflex Boy here puts it back in.]

aus.culture.true-blue, alt.usenet.kooks added.

>fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
><41d7eed6.3632564@news.dodo.com.au>:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:00:29 +1100, Iser Koch-Sacher
>> wrote in message
>><9vg4t0582lj5sco98lrs998t8js0or2f6b@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>Jura Koch-Sacher wrote in message
>>>:
>>>
>>>>[a.c.t-b flung]
>>>>fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
>>>><41d21c05.6303494@news.dodo.com.au>:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:15:11 +1100, Harry Snape
>>>>>wrote in message <41ce56ef$0$1123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>>>>[-- 8< --]
>>>>>>I'm sure that you've always been a Koch-Sacher and come from a long line
>>>>>>of Koch-Sachers.
>>>>>
>>>>>A very obsessive line of Koch-Sachers too, it seems. I mean, for
>>>>>Pete's or Harry's or Ray's or even Fuck's sake, who gives a monkey's
>>>>>if a usenet poster changes or doesn't change his nom de kybd?
>>>>>
>>>>Speaking (typing?) of "obsessive"... We seem to be having a discussion
>>>>at one remove, using Ray - oops, sorry - Harry's messages as
>>>>intermediaries. Sort of misses the point of having me in your
>>>>killfile, don't you think, O Circumflexual One?
>>>>
>>>Just to amplify on that point (while I wait for a long d/l to
>>>complete)... I don't care what people call themselves online,
>>
>>Mightily generous of you. No, really, I mean it.
>>
>With a 'nym like mine, I'm not really in a position to judge.

That's interesting.

So tell me this John: before you adopted your current ridiculously
childish pseudo, did you feel that you had a right to care about what
other posters called themselves?

And if so, do you regret having thrown away the "right" to judge other
posters' pseudonyms harshly?

>
>One thing I *do* care about, though, is when stupid Mount Isa troppo
>trolls appropriate someone else's 'nym, stick a circumflex on top of
>one character and then kid themselves about how 'clever' they are.

Really? I was not aware that anyone had done that. Perhaps you are
still imagining things?

>
>Alan: I find cleverer things than you scurrying in my compost bin.

I doubt you'd have enough intelligence to realise the potential
benefits of recycling kitchen scraps via a compost bin.

>>>but I>>get slightly peeved at people who try to deny their previous
>>>'incarnations'.
>>
>>Why?
>>
>Because the denial makes you a fucking LIAR, you dense clown.

I see you still haven't addressed your anger problems, John.

>>>Just to amplify on *that* point... While I disagree with Ned's imposed
>>>'philosophy' for a.c.t-b
>>
>>Well then in that case, perhaps you should address his points
>>sensibly, instead of simply hurling insults at him?
>
>There weren't any points *to* address, you stupid Mount Isa troppo
>troll.

If that's the case, if he didn't actually put forward any ideas, then
how do you know that you disagree with him? See, you're getting all
confused again.

> - sort of like you,
>really.

Tsk tsk. What an angry little shit you are. No redeeming qualities at
all.

Sorry if that sounds a little harsh, but I find that sometimes you
have to be cruel to be kind.

>
>> You need to change>your "style"
>
>You need to change your 'nym, O Net.Kooky One. Soon.

My 'nym really annoys you something chronic, doesn't it?

Tell me, do you think that your OTT response to my latest pseudo is
entirely rational?

>Getting tips on Usenet posting style from the APNKOTY 1996 - that's
>just fan-fucking-tastic...
>http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7573/nk96.gif

Ah, here we see a bit of jealousy from someone who was judged to be
too kOoKy to compete for an award from the good folks in
alt.usenet.kooks.

Formosa'ed your "ass" the hell outta there, didn't they? :)

Unfairly, IMO.

I really think you should give it another go. Might be a whole new
power structure over there since your first attempt - they mighta had
a coup there or something. :)

>
>While we're critiquing each other's style, here's my advice to you:
>1. Get a hammer.
>2. With it, break all your fingers and then your modem.
>3. Dial up your nearest charity (you'll have to use your nose to press
>the keys) and donate your computer to them.

Oh John, how witty. In fact, to borrow a term from the Tomato - you
are indeed a shining whit.

>
>Follow those steps, and the quality of your postings will improve
>immeasurably.
>
>> - simply hurling insults at someone whom you perceive to
>>be insufficiently PC, or insufficiently left-wing, does not cut it
>>anymore.
>>
>Get fucked you stupid Mount Isa troppo troll cunt.

Poor old John sitting there in his neglected, stinky old paint-peeling
weatherboard shack in the cheap outer suburbs of Armidale, angrily
bashing his keyboard and shouting at his monitor. No wonder the
neighbours think you're a loony.

Are they still breaking into your house and turning the pillows around
in your pillow-cases?

>
>>See below.
>>
>It was three lines down, you stupid Mount Isa troppo troll cunt, so I

Wooooo!!

>can't really help *but* see it. Fuck, but you're a posturing waste of
>bandwidth and hard-drive space.

If that's the case, why do you keep on coming back to get yourself
trounced and humiliated again and again? Would of thought you'da
learned your lesson by now.

>
>>>and his 'NRTact-b' tactics, I agree with him
>>>on the general principle of keeping groups on-topic and thus concise.
>>
>>Does this mean that you intend to start using aus.politics as a forum
>>in which to discuss issues relevant to politics in Australia?
>
>When someone worth discussing them with comes along, sure.

John, there's no shortage of interesting threads in aus.politics.

Just admit it, you don't have the mental capacity to carry on an
intelligent discussion.

Isn't it strange that you you insist that all other posters stay
on-charter, wheras you make no effort to do so yourself. There's a
word to describe that, John. See if you can guess what that word is.

>When all I
>get is self-absorbed, brain-dead, cross-posting knuckle-draggers like
>you and Neddy Landgoon it's a bit hard to have a meaningful, informed
>discussion.

So John, are you still checking the labels on your pillows?

>Oh, almost forgot: get fucked you stupid Mount Isa troppo troll cunt.

Scratch. Koff.
--

fasgnâdh - the Thinking Man's Seppo Renfors.

A True Gentleman.- not many of us left.

Now with extra reasonableness and 10% more humility.

From:	Ned Latham
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	1 Jan 2005 09:15:18 +1050

Alan Peyton-Smith, posting as "fasgnâdh", wrote
in <41d90960.32073776@news.dodo.com.au>:

Nothing relevant to act-b.

----snip----

Ned
--
True Blue FAQ:
Public key: http://pgp.mit.edu/ http://www.keyserver.net/en/
Fingerprint: D17C FDD5 BBA8 8687 42E3 C8F2 C9FB 0314 E17A 0CD7

From:	Ned Latham
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	1 Jan 2005 09:14:12 +1050

From:	Tomasso vs noise
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Wed, 29 Dec 2004 07:24:31 GMT

"Jura Koch-Sacher" wrote=20
> ...I don't care what people call themselves online,=20

I care if they call themselves "Tomasso".

> but I get slightly peeved at people who try to deny their previous
> 'incarnations'.
>=20
> I admitted mine freely...

Agree completely.=20

Most of the people with something to write which is worth reading =
(whether I
find agreement, or not), are quite content to have a history (however =
flawed)
and a reasonably apparent identity.

Tomasso.

From:	Jura Koch-Sacher
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:13:38 +1100

"Tomasso vs noise" wrote in message

:

>
>"Jura Koch-Sacher" wrote
>> ...I don't care what people call themselves online,
>
>I care if they call themselves "Tomasso".
>
What if they use your 'nym but whack in a few circumflexes, cedillas,
umlauts etc? That makes it OK, doesn't it? (There's at least one
poster around who thinks it does...)
[-- 8< --]

From:	fasgnâdh
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Sat, 25 Dec 2004 04:27:37 GMT

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:59:12 +1100, Harry Snape
wrote in message <41cc0490$0$24378$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:

>Iser Koch-Sacher wrote:

<...>

>> Whatever. I just like watching them squirm as they try to bullshit
>> their way out of the web of their own weaving.
>
>So bullshit your way out of your baseless accusation that I deleted that
>post.
>We can see why you had to change your first name from Ima.

Funny you should say that. His name is not Ima. It's Iser.

Works (just the same) for me, though. :) [see above.]

(BTW, Hi Ned, and Merry Xmas. I'm xposting this to act-b just to make
sure you get my friendley greetinge.)

--

fasgnâdh - the Thinking Man's Seppo Renfors.

A True Gentleman.- not many of us left.

Now with extra reasonableness and 10% more humility.

From:	Jura Koch-Sacher
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:11:01 +1100

[a.c.t-b flung]
fasgnâdh@fukyoo.com.au (fasgnâdh) wrote in message
<41cceaf8.10586878@news.dodo.com.au>:

>On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:59:12 +1100, Harry Snape
>wrote in message <41cc0490$0$24378$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>
>>Iser Koch-Sacher wrote:
>
><...>
>
>>> Whatever. I just like watching them squirm as they try to bullshit
>>> their way out of the web of their own weaving.
>>
>>So bullshit your way out of your baseless accusation that I deleted that
>>post.
>>We can see why you had to change your first name from Ima.
>
>Funny you should say that. His name is not Ima. It's Iser.
>
Alan, Alan, Alan, you brain-addled Mount Isa troppo troll... If you
didn't have me killfiled, you'd know that I've already stated my true
identity:
Message-ID:

Now, as for *your* 'illustrious' past...
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7573/nk96.gif

>Works (just the same) for me, though. :) [see above.]
>
At least I don't appropriate other people's 'nyms. Sit on your
circumflex and spin.

>(BTW, Hi Ned, and Merry Xmas. I'm xposting this to act-b just to make
>sure you get my friendley greetinge.)

Can I have a "NRTact-b"/"pissofftrool" with that? If Neddy Landgoon
calls Prattling-Twit a troll, he'll be right on the money for once.

From:	Ned Latham
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	28 Dec 2004 12:01:27 +1050

Alan Peyton-Smith, posting as "fasgnâdh", wrote
in <41cceaf8.10586878@news.dodo.com.au>:

Nothing relevant to act-b.

Piss off, troll.

----snip----

Ned
--
True Blue FAQ:
Public key: http://pgp.mit.edu/ http://www.keyserver.net/en/
Fingerprint: D17C FDD5 BBA8 8687 42E3 C8F2 C9FB 0314 E17A 0CD7

From:	Harry Snape
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:48:29 +1100

Tomasso vs noise wrote:
>
> "Jura Koch-Sacher" wrote in message news:b02ls0pq8d7hah5orkqnf0mmu369m8gp0u@4ax.com...
>
>>"Tomasso at that secure place" wrote in message
>><41ca5804_1@news.iprimus.com.au>:
>>[-- 8< --]
>>
>>>I'm concerned, not with this basic spec, but how some bunch of PS morons
>>>may implement it. Mr H Snape-MacKay might be an example of such a
>>>moron, or may be inclined to subvert the process (and indeed, may be
>>>involved on BOTH sides of the fence).
>>
>>Completely OT to this discussion, and just before I disappear from
>>this thread after re--ing Ned, but 'Harry Snape' isn't Peter
>>Mackay. Here's some (circumstantial) evidence regarding his
>>identity...
>>Message-ID: <39inf0h47g863plu0jbk4pk1kc78i9ttvg@4ax.com>
>>[-- 8< --]
>
>
> Hmmm.
>
> If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...
>
> No, let me start again:
>
> If it is indistinguishable from any of a number fermenting cohort of alienated
> "bovver boys", there is not point is aiming more precisely. They are Borg...
>
> Tomasso.

Poor Tomato, makes himself a public idiot and then has a little cry.

From:	Harry Snape
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:06:58 +1100

Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
> "Tomasso at that secure place" wrote in message
> <41ca5804_1@news.iprimus.com.au>:
> [-- 8< --]
>
>>I'm concerned, not with this basic spec, but how some bunch of PS morons
>>may implement it. Mr H Snape-MacKay might be an example of such a
>>moron, or may be inclined to subvert the process (and indeed, may be
>>involved on BOTH sides of the fence).
>
>
> Completely OT to this discussion, and just before I disappear from
> this thread after re--ing Ned, but 'Harry Snape' isn't Peter
> Mackay. Here's some (circumstantial) evidence regarding his
> identity...
> Message-ID: <39inf0h47g863plu0jbk4pk1kc78i9ttvg@4ax.com>
> [-- 8< --]

Cool, you've managed to track down that I posted from the same IP as
another person a few days later. An IP that has been reassigned. An
Optus dial-up no less. Sadly I've never, ever had an ISP dial up plan.
I've only had ISDN, a company point-to-point or cable ...

You should feed Tomato's paranoia, he'll start thinking everyone is
making fun of him.

From:	Jura Koch-Sacher
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:14:34 +1100

Harry Snape wrote in message
<41cac2f2$0$1125$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:

>Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
>> "Tomasso at that secure place" wrote in message
>> <41ca5804_1@news.iprimus.com.au>:
>> [-- 8< --]
>>
>>>I'm concerned, not with this basic spec, but how some bunch of PS morons
>>>may implement it. Mr H Snape-MacKay might be an example of such a
>>>moron, or may be inclined to subvert the process (and indeed, may be
>>>involved on BOTH sides of the fence).
>>
>> Completely OT to this discussion, and just before I disappear from
>> this thread after re--ing Ned, but 'Harry Snape' isn't Peter
>> Mackay. Here's some (circumstantial) evidence regarding his
>> identity...
>> Message-ID: <39inf0h47g863plu0jbk4pk1kc78i9ttvg@4ax.com>
>> [-- 8< --]
>
>Cool, you've managed to track down that I posted from the same IP as
>another person a few days later.

....who *just happened* to be using the same version of the same
newsreader on the same version of the same (not-too-common) OS:
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)

If that field had read "Macro$loth OutPuke Distress v.[whatever]" you
might have a point, but as it stands... you're busted, Ray/Harry.

I notice your current newsreader is User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U;
Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040913. Good to see you're
keeping up with the latest and greatest from NutScrape On Linux...

> An IP that has been reassigned. An >Optus dial-up no less.

....and no more...

> Sadly I've never, ever had an ISP dial up plan.
>I've only had ISDN, a company point-to-point or cable ...
>
If that's true then there are two possibilities (that I can see, at
least):
1) The *very first post* under the 'Harry Snape' 'nym, from that
Optusnet dialup address, was a forgery, or
2) You appropriated the 'nym, from the person who made that post on
23/2/2002, at some later date.

I'll discount (1) because the forger would have needed to have had
predictive abilities better than Nostradamus. That leaves us with (2),
though maybe there's some other explanation. (And hopefully it's one
that isn't in violation of the laws of physics/causality.)

So, 'Harry': when did you steal that dude's 'nym?

>You should feed Tomato's paranoia, he'll start thinking everyone is
>making fun of him.

On the subject of "paranoia"... why did you nuke Ray's last post,
which I referenced earlier, from Google?
Message-ID: <3C777FE6.B45DDE8@commsecure.com.au>, that is.

Makes no difference. There's a string of posts preceding it
chronologically, over several days from the same IP address using the
same newsreader, bearing the name 'Ray Loyzaga'.

Message-ID: <3C774300.E010E...@commsecure.com.au>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:21:36 +1100
From: Ray Loyzaga
Organization: CommSecure Limited
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
[...]
NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.78.35

Message-ID: <3C749A8C.DD1AC...@commsecure.com.au>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:58:20 +1100
From: Ray Loyzaga
Organization: CommSecure Limited
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
[...]
NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.78.35

Message-ID: <3C6CC446.27154...@commsecure.com.au>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:18:14 +1100
From: Ray Loyzaga
Organization: CommSecure Limited
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
[...]
NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.78.35

Stopping now 'cos I'm bored. Happy nuking, Ray - er, Harry - er,
whoever you are...

From:	Harry Snape
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:51:12 +1100

Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
> Harry Snape wrote in message
> <41cac2f2$0$1125$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>
>
>>Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
>>
>>>"Tomasso at that secure place" wrote in message
>>><41ca5804_1@news.iprimus.com.au>:
>>>[-- 8< --]
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm concerned, not with this basic spec, but how some bunch of PS morons
>>>>may implement it. Mr H Snape-MacKay might be an example of such a
>>>>moron, or may be inclined to subvert the process (and indeed, may be
>>>>involved on BOTH sides of the fence).
>>>
>>>Completely OT to this discussion, and just before I disappear from
>>>this thread after re--ing Ned, but 'Harry Snape' isn't Peter
>>>Mackay. Here's some (circumstantial) evidence regarding his
>>>identity...
>>>Message-ID: <39inf0h47g863plu0jbk4pk1kc78i9ttvg@4ax.com>
>>>[-- 8< --]
>>
>>Cool, you've managed to track down that I posted from the same IP as
>>another person a few days later.
>
>
> ...who *just happened* to be using the same version of the same
> newsreader on the same version of the same (not-too-common) OS:
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
>
> If that field had read "Macro$loth OutPuke Distress v.[whatever]" you
> might have a point, but as it stands... you're busted, Ray/Harry.
>
> I notice your current newsreader is User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U;
> Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040913. Good to see you're
> keeping up with the latest and greatest from NutScrape On Linux...

Wow, what a coincidence. I wonder what would have happened if the timing
fits my access to a Uni server. What would a multi-user system look like
.... same IP browser. Nice work sherlock.
Now from about 1999 Sydney Uni had a 16 processor cluster that server
staff, pgrads, hons and ugrad.. It was a research system and hosted
about 3000 accounts. I don't know what has become of that system.
I understand from google, Ray worked at Sydney Uni at that time ...
This could explain my inability to understand why I'd have a
"reassigned" dial-up address.

>
>>An IP that has been reassigned. An >Optus dial-up no less.
>
>
> ...and no more...

I've never used one.

>
>>Sadly I've never, ever had an ISP dial up plan.
>>I've only had ISDN, a company point-to-point or cable ...
>>
>
> If that's true then there are two possibilities (that I can see, at
> least):
> 1) The *very first post* under the 'Harry Snape' 'nym, from that
> Optusnet dialup address, was a forgery, or
> 2) You appropriated the 'nym, from the person who made that post on
> 23/2/2002, at some later date.

Sorry Sherlock.

> I'll discount (1) because the forger would have needed to have had
> predictive abilities better than Nostradamus. That leaves us with (2),
> though maybe there's some other explanation. (And hopefully it's one
> that isn't in violation of the laws of physics/causality.)
>
> So, 'Harry': when did you steal that dude's 'nym?
>
>
>>You should feed Tomato's paranoia, he'll start thinking everyone is
>>making fun of him.
>
>
> On the subject of "paranoia"... why did you nuke Ray's last post,
> which I referenced earlier, from Google?
> Message-ID: <3C777FE6.B45DDE8@commsecure.com.au>, that is.

I didn't. Exactly what would I need to be able to do that?
It certainly worked when I went to google groups just now. Why do you
accuse people with no evidence?

> Makes no difference. There's a string of posts preceding it
> chronologically, over several days from the same IP address using the
> same newsreader, bearing the name 'Ray Loyzaga'.
>
> Message-ID: <3C774300.E010E...@commsecure.com.au>
> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:21:36 +1100
> From: Ray Loyzaga
> Organization: CommSecure Limited
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
> [...]
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.78.35
>
> Message-ID: <3C749A8C.DD1AC...@commsecure.com.au>
> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:58:20 +1100
> From: Ray Loyzaga
> Organization: CommSecure Limited
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
> [...]
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.78.35
>
> Message-ID: <3C6CC446.27154...@commsecure.com.au>
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:18:14 +1100
> From: Ray Loyzaga
> Organization: CommSecure Limited
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
> [...]
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.78.35
>
> Stopping now 'cos I'm bored. Happy nuking, Ray - er, Harry - er,
> whoever you are...
How exciting for you. Must be nearly your life's work. Now you do need
to apologise for accusing me of deleting a post that still exists.
Very sloppy work.

From:	Jura Koch-Sacher
Subject:	Re: Boycott a.c.t-b
Date:	Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:11:08 +1100

Harry Snape wrote in message
<41cc02b6$0$6542$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:

>Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
>> Harry Snape wrote in message
>> <41cac2f2$0$1125$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>:
>>
>>
>>>Jura Koch-Sacher wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Tomasso at that secure place" wrote in message
>>>><41ca5804_1@news.iprimus.com.au>:
>>>>[-- 8< --]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm concerned, not with this basic spec, but how some bunch of PS morons
>>>>>may implement it. Mr H Snape-MacKay might be an example of such a
>>>>>moron, or may be inclined to subvert the process (and indeed, may be
>>>>>involved on BOTH sides of the fence).
>>>>
>>>>Completely OT to this discussion, and just before I disappear from
>>>>this thread after re--ing Ned, but 'Harry Snape' isn't Peter
>>>>Mackay. Here's some (circumstantial) evidence regarding his
>>>>identity...
>>>>Message-ID: <39inf0h47g863plu0jbk4pk1kc78i9ttvg@4ax.com>
>>>>[-- 8< --]
>>>
>>>Cool, you've managed to track down that I posted from the same IP as
>>>another person a few days later.
>>
>>
>> ...who *just happened* to be using the same version of the same
>> newsreader on the same version of the same (not-too-common) OS:
>> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
>>
>> If that field had read "Macro$loth OutPuke Distress v.[whatever]" you
>> might have a point, but as it stands... you're busted, Ray/Harry.
>>
>> I notice your current newsreader is User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U;
>> Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040913. Good to see you're
>> keeping up with the latest and greatest from NutScrape On Linux...
>
>Wow, what a coincidence. I wonder what would have happened if the timing
>fits my access to a Uni server. What would a multi-user system look like
>... same IP browser. Nice work sherlock.
>Now from about 1999 Sydney Uni had a 16 processor cluster that server
>staff, pgrads, hons and ugrad.. It was a research system and hosted
>about 3000 accounts. I don't know what has become of that system.

Whatever; it (the system) became irrelevant to this discussion a few
years before the time frame in question, i.e. early 2002.

>I understand from google, Ray worked at Sydney Uni at that time ...

Ray's last post from a usyd.edu.au account:

From: Ray Loyzaga
Subject: Re: CGI problem
Date: 2000/01/12
Message-ID: <387C68DD.71D3F226@commsecure.com.au>#1/1
[...]
X-Trace: metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au 947677965 14153 129.78.111.113 (12 Jan
2000 11:52:45 GMT)
Organization: The University of Sydney, Australia

Then he disappeared off Usenet until June (damn that real world, where
you have to pay for your Internet usage), and re-emerged as an Optus
customer:

From: Ray Loyzaga
Subject: Re: can python do this?
Date: 2000/06/13
Message-ID: <3945B926.9AB7762F@commsecure.com.au>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 633923802
[...]
X-Complaints-To: a...@optushome.com.au
X-Trace: news1.belrs1.nsw.optushome.com.au 960893148 203.164.12.192
(Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:45:48 EST)
Organization: CommSecure Pty Ltd

Just a side issue: check that X-Trace: field. I notice that you're
posting from IP address 211.30.82.219 (Canonical name:
c211-30-82-219.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au), which is an Optus DSL
account if I'm not mistaken. 'belrs' indicates the Sydney suburb of
Belrose AIUI. Slight coincidence, eh?

>This could explain my inability to understand why I'd have a
>"reassigned" dial-up address.
>
In my prowling around, I've noticed that Optus tends to shuffle its IP
addresses around among its domain names. Could it be that
203.164.78.35, which is *currently* a dialup address, was a DSL (or
other fixed-IP) address in 2002? That would explain why it didn't
change over months for Ray's/your posts, whereas the
dynamically-assigned IP addresses that dialup accounts typically have
change with every session.
>>
>>>An IP that has been reassigned. An >Optus dial-up no less.
>>
>> ...and no more...
>
>I've never used one.
>
Well, you are posting from an Optus DSL account now. See my comment
above re: the Optus Shuffle.
>>
>>>Sadly I've never, ever had an ISP dial up plan.
>>>I've only had ISDN, a company point-to-point or cable ...
>>>
>>
>> If that's true then there are two possibilities (that I can see, at
>> least):
>> 1) The *very first post* under the 'Harry Snape' 'nym, from that
>> Optusnet dialup address, was a forgery, or
>> 2) You appropriated the 'nym, from the person who made that post on
>> 23/2/2002, at some later date.
>
>Sorry Sherlock.
>
In other words, you don't have a plausible explanation. The best you
could manage was a red herring about some Sydney Uni system in 1999
(i.e 2-3 years before the time period that's under discussion).

>> I'll discount (1) because the forger would have needed to have had
>> predictive abilities better than Nostradamus. That leaves us with (2),
>> though maybe there's some other explanation. (And hopefully it's one
>> that isn't in violation of the laws of physics/causality.)
>>
>> So, 'Harry': when did you steal that dude's 'nym?
>>
'Harry''s reply:
http://simplythebest.net/sounds/WAV/sound_effects_WAV/sound_effect_WAV_files/crickets_1.wav
>>
>>>You should feed Tomato's paranoia, he'll start thinking everyone is
>>>making fun of him.
>>
>>
>> On the subject of "paranoia"... why did you nuke Ray's last post,
>> which I referenced earlier, from Google?
>> Message-ID: <3C777FE6.B45DDE8@commsecure.com.au>, that is.
>
>I didn't. Exactly what would I need to be able to do that?

Why you'd *need* to is between you and your braincare specialist, and
no concern of mine.

>It certainly worked when I went to google groups just now. Why do you
>accuse people with no evidence?
>
I couldn't find it on Friday. Could've been a typo (cut-n-paste-o) on
my part, could've been a stuffup (e.g. disconnected server) at
Google's end. As I say below, it makes no difference.

>> Makes no difference. There's a string of posts preceding it
>> chronologically, over several days from the same IP address using the
>> same newsreader, bearing the name 'Ray Loyzaga'.
>>
>> Message-ID: <3C774300.E010E...@commsecure.com.au>
>> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:21:36 +1100
>> From: Ray Loyzaga
>> Organization: CommSecure Limited
>> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
>> [...]
>> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.78.35
>>
>> Message-ID: <3C749A8C.DD1AC...@commsecure.com.au>
>> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:58:20 +1100
>> From: Ray Loyzaga
>> Organization: CommSecure Limited
>> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
>> [...]
>> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.78.35
>>
>> Message-ID: <3C6CC446.27154...@commsecure.com.au>
>> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:18:14 +1100
>> From: Ray Loyzaga
>> Organization: CommSecure Limited
>> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686)
>> [...]
>> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.78.35
>>
>> Stopping now 'cos I'm bored. Happy nuking, Ray - er, Harry - er,
>> whoever you are...
>How exciting for you. Must be nearly your life's work. Now you do need
>to apologise for accusing me of deleting a post that still exists.

As I say - I couldn't find it on Friday. ***IF*** it was a cut-n-paste
error on my part then, yes, you have a conditional apology. If it was
for any other reason, then - no apology.

>Very sloppy work.

That's what the guys used to say about my sister Ima. 'Cept they<