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 | | From: | Steve Goltra | | Subject: | Holy Spirit and the Old Testament | | Date: | Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:57:39 GMT |
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 | This is again addressed to Drew (AKA Justin, AKA Frank, AKA Lbrty4us)
The Holy Spirit came upon and within believers in the Old Testament. The
problem is, until sin was dealt with once and for all by the blood
sacrifice, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit could not
stay with the believer for any length of time. At Pentecost, 50 days after
the Resurrection, after sin was dealt with, the Holy Spirit came upon all of
the believers and now lives and stays within the heart of the believer until
Christ comes to redeem fallen man to himself.
The Holy Spirit enters the heart of the believer, AFTER he becomes a
believer (not before) and directs/guides the believer into all truth. John
16:13-14 tells us: " 13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he
will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but
whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things
to come. 14. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall
shew it unto you."
Exodus (the Old Testament) teaches us that God filled certain believers with
the Holy Spirit for doing specific things/projects to prepare everything
necessary for the Temple and the Priests:
Exodus 28:3-4
3. And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I HAVE FILLED
WITH THE SPIRIT of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate
him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
4. And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an
ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they
shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may
minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exodus 31:2-4
2. See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of
the tribe of Judah:
3. And I haveFILLED HIM WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, in wisdom, and in
understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
4. To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exodus 35:30-31 ..."The Lord hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri,
the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
31. And he hath FILLED HIM WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, in wisdom, in
understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
Numbers 11:25-26
25. "And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of
the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it
came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and
did not cease.
26. But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one
was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them;
and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the
tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp"
I could go over many more examples of this indwelling of the Holy Ghost. I
could also site other examples of where the Holy Spirit came upon beleivers
(Sampson, David, etc), but this should suffice.
God bless,
Steve Goltra
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| | From: | TheDrewsk | | Subject: | Re: Holy Spirit and the Old Testament | | Date: | Mon, 27 Dec 2004 23:09:34 GMT |
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| Christ sent His disciples away.
A) The disciples left Him and fled. That is a direct quote from Mark
14:50.
Once the Old
Testament sinner, before Christ, believed God, and believed in His
coming
Messiah, they were SAVED AND THEN THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME UPON AND WITHIN
THEM.
B) 1 Corinthians 2:10-16. Scripture disagrees with you. No one could
understand the things of God until they have the mind of Christ, the
identity of Christ. Also John 3:3-10. You also must be "baptised with
the Holy Spirit" to be indwelt which didn't happen before Jesus died
and rose. Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8.
Please, my friend, start using more scripture. And don't just quote
big passages, that's breaking one of the posting laws. Please use more
scripture for more conclusions. Thanks!
Justin the Drewsk
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| | From: | Steve Goltra | | Subject: | Re: Holy Spirit and the Old Testament | | Date: | Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:40:07 GMT |
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| Dear Drews:
Christ's death and resurrection was a mystery in the Old Testament that was
revealed in the New Testament when Christ actually died and resurrected from
the dead. Once He actually died and resurrected, then everything that had
been there (in the Bible) since the beginning became apparent, and made
sense.
When Christ prayed to the Father, in John 17:6 Christ makes a curious
statement when He said:
" I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the
world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and THEY HAVE KEPT THY
WORD."
I read this a long time ago and thought about how they had hopelessly failed
Him in so many ways. They never realized that He would have to die on a
cross and resurrect from the dead. Just before his death the Disciples were
arguing about who would be first among them. One of the Disciples mother
even asked Jesus if her sons could sit on either side of Jesus when He
entered His kingdom. When He prayed this prayer in John 17 (above)- You can
read it all in John 17:1-26- He knew that Peter would deny Him three times,
and that His disciples would be standing " afar off" from the Cross. He knew
all of these things about them, that they would be hiding from the outside
world, with the doors and windows locked, but yet prayed "THEY HAVE KEPT THY
WORD". It took a long time for me to realize that that is how God sees all
of us when we believe. He also saw all of the people before the cross that
believed in the Messiah the same way. We are all works in progress, and will
not be complete until we see Him like He is, at the rapture when we finally
become like Him. In the meantime, eventhough we constantly mess up, we are
not "spiritual" enough, some are carnal, and none of us understand fully
(just like the disciples), etc. etc. etc., He still sees us as righteous, as
perfect. Why, because we believe in Him and the Work that He did for us on
the Cross. Our belief in Him makes us pefect in his sight. We are perfect
because of His work on the Cross, not because of our individual
understanding about anything, other than our belief in Him. His death &
resurrection has taken care of our sin, once and for all! The Holy Spirit
that lives in our hearts guides us into all spirit and truth, but that is
not what saves us. We are saved first, then the Holy Spirit enters our
hearts. Since we still have Adams sin nature, we are not always right. The
reason? Right next to the Holy Spirit is our flesh, our ego, and Satan
whispering in our ear. The only way to sort it all out is by God's Word.
Even the Holy Spirit, that is within us, is not always able to:"reprove,
help, glorifie, or intercede (John 16:7-13; Rom. 8:26). " The reason for
that again is our own sin nature, our flesh, our ego, as well as Satan, who
walks the earth as a roaring lion, seeking who he can destroy. Satan tempted
Christ, and he tempts us as well. Satan is also an accuser of the Brethren.
God's Word is the only thing we have, in black and white, that can tell us
if what the Spirit has told us is true- the only thing!
God bless,
Steve Goltra
"TheDrewsk" wrote in message
news:OC0Ad.11352$9j5.9754@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Christ sent His disciples away.
>
> A) The disciples left Him and fled. That is a direct quote from Mark
> 14:50.
>
> Once the Old
> Testament sinner, before Christ, believed God, and believed in His
> coming
> Messiah, they were SAVED AND THEN THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME UPON AND WITHIN
> THEM.
>
> B) 1 Corinthians 2:10-16. Scripture disagrees with you. No one could
> understand the things of God until they have the mind of Christ, the
> identity of Christ. Also John 3:3-10. You also must be "baptised with
> the Holy Spirit" to be indwelt which didn't happen before Jesus died
> and rose. Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8.
>
> Please, my friend, start using more scripture. And don't just quote
> big passages, that's breaking one of the posting laws. Please use more
> scripture for more conclusions. Thanks!
>
> Justin the Drewsk
>
>
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| | From: | TheDrewsk | | Subject: | Re: Holy Spirit and the Old Testament | | Date: | Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:48:41 GMT |
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| So, what you are saying is (and I'm just trying to understand), even
though the old testament believers were not indwelt with the Holy
Spirit or the new mind of Christ (promise of Ezekiel 36:26), they could
understand that Jesus was coming to die and rise again? Because I
assume this post is in response to my argument about the same
subject.....
If that is the case, I would again quote 1 Corinthians 2:11-14
Also, why did the disciples take off when the Romans came for Jesus?
They spent years with the Son of God, and yet they run when a few
soldiers come? That tells me that the Spirit is not yet working in
them.
Did the Spirit work through a chosen few during the old testament?
Yes! I completely agree with you! Also, I think it's a great point.
Another good point about the Spirit not indwelling believers until
Christ' resurrection. I'm just expounding on some results of your
point.
This is great fun!
Justin the Drewsk
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| | From: | Steve Goltra | | Subject: | Re: Holy Spirit and the Old Testament | | Date: | Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:37:40 GMT |
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| Drew said: "So, what you are saying is (and I'm just trying to understand),
even
> though the old testament believers were not indwelt with the Holy
> Spirit or the new mind of Christ (promise of Ezekiel 36:26), they could
> understand that Jesus was coming to die and rise again? Because I
> assume this post is in response to my argument about the same
> subject
Steve's response: They did not understand that Jesus had to die and rise
again in the Old Testament. Eventhough this ended up being part of the
Gospel (God's plan, the "Good News"), it was still not clear from God's word
in the Old Testament about exactly what would take place. Once the Old
Testament sinner, before Christ, believed God, and believed in His coming
Messiah, they were SAVED AND THEN THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME UPON AND WITHIN THEM.
For us living today, after the cross, we can see clearly from God's word and
history of exactly what the cost was to Christ to take care of the sin of
the world, from the beginning of time to the end of time. Christ took care
of all the sin of those that died before He came to do His work on the cross
[all of the way back to Adam], and He also, at the same time took care of
all our sin 2000 years after the cross.
None of the Disciples understood that He was going to have to die. They
didn't have to understand anything, other than to believe God, and in the
Messiah to come. Eventhough they made mistakes, Thomas doubted Him, etc.
etc. etc., they were still saved. God counts anyone's belief in Him as
righteousness, and eventhough the disciples messed up (sinned) then, and did
not understand clearly, and today I/you/we mess up (sin) and do not
understand clearly, we are still saved. Christ did all of the work. Our only
requirement, our only work, is to believe. If we do not believe in God, then
no matter what Christ did has any effect on us.
Drew said: Also, why did the disciples take off when the Romans came for
Jesus?
> They spent years with the Son of God, and yet they run when a few
> soldiers come? That tells me that the Spirit is not yet working in
> them
Steve's response: Christ sent His disciples away. Peter withdrew his sword
and cut off one of ears of one of the servants of the High Priest, but
Christ told him to put it away and healed the ear. Matthew 26:51-54
51. And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand,
and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off
his ear.
52. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for
all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall
presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54. But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Drew said:
Did the Spirit work through a chosen few during the old testament?
> Yes! I completely agree with you! Also, I think it's a great point.
> Another good point about the Spirit not indwelling believers until
> Christ' resurrection. I'm just expounding on some results of your
> point
Steve's response: The spirit worked thorough all of the people who believed
God. In the Old testament, before Christ as well as in the New Testament
after Christ came. The only difference is the Holy Ghost lives and stays in
my/your heart. He could not do so before Christ took care of sin once and
for all.
God bless,
Steve Goltra
"TheDrewsk" wrote in message
news:dVAyd.7924$RH4.5220@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> So, what you are saying is (and I'm just trying to understand), even
> though the old testament believers were not indwelt with the Holy
> Spirit or the new mind of Christ (promise of Ezekiel 36:26), they could
> understand that Jesus was coming to die and rise again? Because I
> assume this post is in response to my argument about the same
> subject.....
>
> If that is the case, I would again quote 1 Corinthians 2:11-14
>
> Also, why did the disciples take off when the Romans came for Jesus?
> They spent years with the Son of God, and yet they run when a few
> soldiers come? That tells me that the Spirit is not yet working in
> them.
>
> Did the Spirit work through a chosen few during the old testament?
> Yes! I completely agree with you! Also, I think it's a great point.
> Another good point about the Spirit not indwelling believers until
> Christ' resurrection. I'm just expounding on some results of your
> point.
>
> This is great fun!
>
> Justin the Drewsk
>
>
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