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 | | From: | Steve Goltra | | Subject: | The Church | | Date: | Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:00:43 GMT |
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 | There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about what the "Church" really
consists of. I offer the following from God's word that clarifies this
issue:
The Bible is very clear and teaches that the Lord is interested in only 3
groups of people: The Jew, the Gentile, and the church. The church is made
up of Jews and Gentiles chosen by God to make up a brand new entity. In
Romans 9:27-29 Paul tells us that God, in His sovereignty gave opportunity
for Israel to come to Him. But most of Israel passed up the invitation. Paul
says only a seed, only a remnant responded to the message of grace:
" 27. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the
children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28. For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness:
because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a
seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha."
The church, since the beginning of time, has always been an Assembly of
believers. Those that believe God and believe in Jesus Christ, the Messiah,
the seed of the woman, that will come save mankind, and to redeem fallen man
to himself.
If I go to Strongs exhaustive Concordance and look up the word Assembly, I
find that it appears in the Books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,
Deuteronomy, Judges, 1 Samuel, Psalms, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Zephaniah,
Acts, Hebrews and James. The New Testament references to "Assembly" are
found in Acts 19:32, 37, 41 and Hebrews 12:23, as well as James 2:2. In the
New Testament we find three word used to describe assembly:
In Acts it is one word for each reference Strong's Number: 1577
Transliterated: ekklesia
Phonetic: ek-klay-see'-ah
Text: from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e.
(concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish
synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or
both): --assembly, church.
In Hebrews, the word assembly is used as a adjective in reference to the
Church in Strongs number 3831: Strong's Number: 3831
Transliterated: paneguris
Phonetic: pan-ay'-goo-ris
Text: from 3956 and a derivative of 58; a mass-meeting, i.e. (figuratively)
universal companionship: --general assembly.
In James 2:2 the word uses is Strongs 4864: Strong's Number: 4864
Transliterated: sunagoge
Phonetic: soon-ag-o-'
Text: from (the reduplicated form of) 4863; an assemblage of persons;
specifically, a Jewish "synagogue" (the meeting or the place); by analogy, a
Christian church: --assembly, congregation, synagogue.
To sum up the Doctrine of who and what the Church is, and always has been,
since the beginning I offer this conclusion:
Every time the word for Church is mentioned in the New Testament, only one
Greek word is used Ekklesia, Strongs #1577. This word unites the meaning of
Church in New Testament in Greek, to the word used in the Old Testament to
describe "Assembly" as follows:
Strong's Number: 1577
Transliterated: ekklesia
Phonetic: ek-klay-see'-ah
Text: from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e.
(concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish
synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or
both): --assembly, church.
God bless,
Steve Goltra
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| | From: | themuzicman at gmail.com | | Subject: | Re: The Church | | Date: | Mon, 27 Dec 2004 23:05:27 GMT |
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| Well, to take it back to the Greek setting, the synagogue was the
meeting place that Jews in exile went into in order to worship God,
since there was not temple. (Sunagoge)
Paneguris referred to more to a people who had something in common, a
group, such as the Nation of Israel, or the California order of the
Moose.
Ecclesia has a different conntotation. It's original meaning was "the
ones called out," generally referring to a meeting called by the town
crier, and generally into a public square or meeting place. Thus, the
meaning came to be a public assembly. The church adopted this as a
codeword for itself, so they could talk about getting together without
being detected. And, as codewords do, it became the name for the
church in Christian circles.
(If you take the time to study Greek as it was used in those days
outside the bible, you'll get a better feel for things. Scholars have
a saying about Strongs, BTW: "If it's Strong's, it's probably wrong."
I suggest finding the Liddell-Scott lexicon online, and looking up
words in there to find how they were used in common language.)
FYI, these aren't unique groups of people, but just different ways of
referring to different kinds of groups. If you disagree, then explain
why many in the early church met in synogogues.
Muz
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| | From: | Steve Goltra | | Subject: | Re: The Church | | Date: | Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:37:21 GMT |
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| Dear Muz: We will have to agree to disagree.
In regards to your statement "if it's Strong's it's wrong" my reply would be
that Strongs relies on the Textus Recetpus, the same text followed by the
KJV. All of the newer versions (NIV, NASV, etc) rely on the corrupt
Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus A (the same text relied upon to create the
Catholic Bible) and would be at home with your choice of Lexicons
(Liddell-Scott lexicon). As for me, Strongs is the only choice.
The word "Assembly" is found in Exodus 12:6 and takes place while they are
in Egypt, just before the Passover, where all of the Jews (God's chosen,
Blood Covenant People) are called together . God refers to these believers
not only as an "assembly" but also a "congregation" in the same sentence: 6.
And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the
whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening."
Assembly -Strongs 6951: Strong's Number: 6951 Transliterated: qahal
Phonetic: kaw-hawl'
Text: from 6950: assemblage (usually concretely): -- assembly, company,
congregation, multitude.
Congregation: 5712: Strong's Number: 5712
Transliterated: `edah Phonetic: ay-daw'
Text: feminine of 5707 in the original sense of fixture; a stated
assemblage (specifically, a concourse, or generally, a family or
crowd): --assembly, company, congregation, multitude, people, swarm. Compare
5713.
The word Assembly appears in the following verses, before the Tabernacle was
even constructed, and many years before the Temple was completed in
Jerusalem:
Exodus 12:3, 6, 19, 47 Ex. 16:1,2,9,10,22 Ex. 17:1
The Word Assembly appear approximately 44 times in the Old Testament and 5
times in the New Testament
The word Congregation also appears in Exodus as follows (The Tabernacle is
not even completed until Exodus 33:1) Ex. 27:21 Ex. 28:43 Ex. 29:4,
10,11,30,32,44 Ex. 30:16,18,20,26,36 Ex. 31:7 Ex. 34:31 Ex. 35: 1, 4,
20, 21 Ex. 38: 8,25,30,32,40 Ex. 40: 2,6,7,12,22,24,26,29,30,32,34,35-The
word CONGREGATION is used approximately 375 TIMES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT Books
of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteromy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel, 1 Kings,
1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah,
Jeremiah, Lamentations, Hos, Joel, Micah, as well as in the New Testament in
Acts 13:43
The Tabernacle was referred to as "The Tabernacle of the Congregation" over,
and over and over in the Old Testament.
In regards to Synagogues, there is a lot of confusion about when they
started. One thing was for sure, not all Jews lived close enough to travel
to Jerusalem to go to the Temple all of the time. Christ and His Disciples
frequently taught in Synagogues (Matt. 13:54; Mark 6:2; John 18:20; Acts
13:5, 15, 44; 14:1; 17:2-4, 10, 17; 18:4, 26; 19:8)
Our earliest Christian Churches (as well as today) were patterned after the
Synagogue described by Ezra- The arrangements for the women's place in a
separate gallery or behind a partition of lattice-work; the desk in the
centre, where the reader, like Ezra in ancient days, from his 'pulpit of
wood,' may 'open the book in the sight of all of people and read in the book
of the law of God distinctly, and give the sense, and cause them to
understand the reading' (Neh. 8:4, 8); the carefully closed ark on the side
of the building nearest to Jerusalem, for the preservation of the rolls or
manuscripts of the law; the seats all round the building, whence 'the eyes
of all them that are in the synagogue' may 'be fastened' on him who speaks
(Luke 4:20); the 'chief seats' (Matt. 23:6) which were appropriated to the
'ruler' or 'rulers' of the synagogue, according as its organization may have
been more or less complete;", these were features common to all the
synagogues. The Synagogues were perfected into a system, the services of the
synagogue, which were at the same hours as those of the temple, consisted of:
(1.) of prayer, which formed a kind of liturgy, there were in all eighteen
prayers;
(2.) the reading of the Scriptures in certain definite portions; and
(3.) the exposition of the portions read. (See Luke 4:15, 22; Acts 13:14.)
The synagogue was also sometimes used as a court of justice, in which the
rulers presided (Matt. 10:17; Mark 5:22; Luke 12:11; 21:12; Acts 13:15;
22:19); also as public schools. The establishment of synagogues wherever the
Jews were found in sufficient numbers helped greatly to keep alive Israel's
hope of the coming of the Messiah, and to prepare the way for the spread of
the gospel in other lands. The worship of the Christian Church was
afterwards modeled after that of the synagogue. Christ and his disciples
frequently taught in the synagogues (Matt. 13:54; Mark 6:2; John 18:20; Acts
13:5, 15, 44; 14:1; 17:2-4, 10, 17; 18:4, 26; 19:8). To be "put out of the
synagogue," a phrase used by John (9:22; 12:42; 16:2), means to be
excommunicated.
The reason that the early Church met in Synagogues is that they were
witnessing to the Jews. Later, when they were rejected they met in Christian
Churches, modeled after the Synagogues (see Nehemiah Chapter 8).
We are saved by faith, the same as Abraham, Samson, Jepthae, Moses and all
of the other Old Testament Saints. We are New Testament Saints. The only
thing that separates us is the Cross. They were looking forward to The
Messiah that was to come, we are looking backward to the Messiah that came.
We will meet Abraham and all of the other Old Testament believers in heaven.
We will meet in the same heaven. I/we could only pray for a walk with God
like that of Abraham or David or Moses. What a wonderful day that will be
when we meet them!
God bless,
Steve Goltra
P.S. Romans 10 tells us that we Gentiles (wild olive branches) are only
grafted onto Abrahams tree. In Romans 10:18-21 we are told not to brag about
this, because: "But you must be careful not to brag about being put in to
replace the branches that were broken off. Remember that you are important
only because you are now a part of God's tree; you are just a branch, not a
root. ``Well,'' you may be saying, ``those branches were broken off to make
room for me so I must be pretty good.'' Watch out! Remember that those
branches, the Jews, were broken off because they didn't believe God, and you
are there only because you do. Do not be proud; be humble and grateful--and
careful.
wrote in message
news:Xy0Ad.11347$9j5.6527@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Well, to take it back to the Greek setting, the synagogue was the
> meeting place that Jews in exile went into in order to worship God,
> since there was not temple. (Sunagoge)
>>
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| | From: | Muz | | Subject: | Re: The Church | | Date: | Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:48:32 GMT |
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| "In regards to your statement "if it's Strong's it's wrong" my reply
would be
that Strongs relies on the Textus Recetpus, the same text followed by
the
KJV. All of the newer versions (NIV, NASV, etc) rely on the corrupt
Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus A (the same text relied upon to create the
Catholic Bible) and would be at home with your choice of Lexicons
(Liddell-Scott lexicon). As for me, Strongs is the only choice."
Oh, do you know where the nam "textus receptus" came from? It was a
marketing device invented 20 years after the 1611 KJV was published.
Before 1633, neither the Greek nor the KJV were called the TR.
Muz
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| | From: | Muz | | Subject: | Re: The Church | | Date: | Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:48:10 GMT |
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| Well, first things first. The present day greek critical text is
compiled by the UBS, and relies on all the available copies of
scripture, not just Sinaticus and Vaticinus, in fact, present textual
criticism has rejected many of Wescott and Hort's assumptions about the
early texts, mainly due to archeological finds of the early 1900s which
turned up fragments that are dated earlier than most of the copies we
have today.
Today's Greek text is far more neutral and accurate in its selection
than either the Byzantine text (from which the TR was compiled) or the
Wescott and Hort text of 1881, and more recent translations more
accurately reflect the original writings than those translated from the
TR or those translated from W&H.
But let's look at the TR more carefully. Erasmus, a Catholic scholar,
was tasked byt the Catholic Church to assemble a Greek text from the
manuscripts he had available fairly quickly, soas to produce a Greek
text before the Spanish finished theirs. And, using about 13
manuscripts, he assembled his text, even having to translate several
verses from the Latin back into the Greek, because the fragments he had
didn't contain these verses.
This is the Greek foundation upon which the KJV was translated. Now,
the KJV isn't a bad translation by any stretch. But it is based upon a
very small number of manuscripts, and only contains the readings of one
family, and only a few readings of scripture, which pale in comparison
to the thousands of manuscripts we have today, and from which we derive
the current Greek text.
Furthermore, Liddel and Scott is a CLASSICAL Lexicon. It does not
limit itself to scriptural uses of words, but compiles its definitions
from as many ancient Greek sources as it can find, and it undoubtedly
far more authoritative in its understanding of what a given word meant
to the Greek speaker than Strongs or Vines. I doubt, for instance,
that Strongs mentions that "musthrion" was frequently a reference to
the mystery religion that worship Demeter. That's the kind of
information Liddell and Scott will give you.
Also keep in mind that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and
Aramaic, so what you're getting out of your Greek text is a translation
of the original into Greek. Again, not a bad translation, but a
translation nonetheless. Also, the Septuigent (the greek translation
of the OT) was written a few hundred years before the NT, and word
usage changes over time. Ecclesia may not have meant "assembly" in
400BC.
But on to the topic at hand.
I think what you're finding in your word study is that words take on
meaning in context, and just because the bible uses one word in a given
place and another in a different place doesn't mean that its talking
about different things, and likewise, the same word used in different
places may not refer to the same things, as well. If you want, I can
provide you with many exampls of this.
Muz
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