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 | | From: | Muz | | Subject: | Re: Eternal Security (OSAS) | | Date: | Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:14:40 GMT |
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 | But God, knowing they WOULD sin, provided a means of
redeeming hmanity back to him through the Christ.
If God, being omniscient, knew they would sin, did they really have a
choice? Could they have not sinned, thus making God's omniscience a
lie?
Muz
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| | From: | Steve Goltra | | Subject: | Re: Eternal Security (OSAS) | | Date: | Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:41:14 GMT |
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| Muz stated: "If God, being omniscient, knew they would sin, did they really
have a
choice? Could they have not sinned, thus making God's omniscience a lie?
Steve's response: Your post crys out with a lack of understanding of who and
what God really is. It really comes across as that of a God hater, not a
child of God that loves Him with all their heart, mind and spirit.
God's personality consists of:
1] Gods word tells us that he sustains, governs and cares for the world He
has created. -
Matthew 6:26, 28-30 reveals to us- "Behold the fowls of the air: for they
sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly
Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?..... And why take ye
thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they
toil not, neither do they spin:
29. And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not
arrayed like one of these.
30. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is,
and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye
of little faith?
Matthew 10:29-30 gives us more insight- "29. Are not two sparrows sold for
a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your
Father.
30. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered."
2] God's word reveals to us that He cares for us and that His government
extends to all of creation:
Gen 39:21 " But the Lord was with Joseph, and shewed him mercy, and gave him
favour in the sight of the keeper of the prison."
Dan 1:9 " Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the
prince of the eunuchs."
1 Kings 19:5-7 And as he lay and slept under a juniper tree, behold, then an
angel touched him, and said unto him, Arise and eat. 6. And he looked,
and, behold, there was a cake baken on the coals, and a cruse of water at
his head. And he did eat and drink, and laid him down again. 7. And the
angel of the Lord came again the second time, and touched him, and said,
Arise and eat; because the journey is too great for thee."
3] God's care and government extend to the individual:
Matt 10:29-30 " Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them
shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30. But the very hairs
of your head are all numbered."
4] God's care and ministry and government extend to the minutest matters:
Psa 76:10 " Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of
wrath shalt thou restrain."
Gen 50:20 " But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it
unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."
(and Romans 9:17, 19)
5] Acts 2:22-23 " Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a
man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God
did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23. Him, being
delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have
taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"
Job 7:12 " And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy
power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from
the presence of the Lord."
Job 2:6 " And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but
save his life."
Luke 22:3 " then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the
number of the twelve."
6] God's control and government extend to the wicked devices and doings of
evil men, and of Satan, and He makes even these work out His own glory and
His people's good.
Romans 8:28 " And we know that all things work together for good to them
that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
God bless,
Steve
"Muz" wrote in message
news:khaFd.5304$Ii4.1605@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> But God, knowing they WOULD sin, provided a means of
> redeeming hmanity back to him through the Christ.
>
>
> If God, being omniscient, knew they would sin, did they really have a
> choice? Could they have not sinned, thus making God's omniscience a
> lie?
>
> Muz
>
>
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| | From: | Smilie | | Subject: | Re: Eternal Security (OSAS) | | Date: | Fri, 14 Jan 2005 05:31:12 GMT |
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>If God, being omniscient, knew they would sin, did they really have a
>choice?
Of course they had choice!
If they had no choice but to sin, then that means God is the one responsible
for sin (as you say in your other post). And this in itself would make a God
a sinner.
Luke 17:
1 ¶ Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will
come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he
cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Remember Paul the apostle did exactly this by making our fellow believers of
the 1st century blaspheme and deny Christ. If God did the same then this
would make him a hipocrite. And to that I say......
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is
written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest
overcome when thou art judged.
>Could they have not sinned, thus making God's omniscience a lie?
Would them not sinning have ruined his plan? Why not accept them into the
ranks of the Angels? It would have ruined nothing. Another man could be
formed and given the same choice.
But the real question again is "HOW is God omniscient?"
It is my understanding that God is outside of this universe. That as big as
this universe is, it cannot encompass God. This universe was created
specifically seperate from Gods direct will (He uses the Angels to do all
his work here) so that sin could exist. Because without sin every person
created would be automatons... individual unique automatons. The Angels are
awesomely powerful so dont think this in any way limits Gods influence as
they could if it was Gods will make EVERYONE worship God.... but again if
they did this everone would be automatons.
God has done it this way because his purpose is love. 1 John 4:8 "God is
love", not that love is some fancy magical force but that his ultimate
purpose is love. Only in the love of God can anyone persevere unto the end,
no other stimulis is strong enough. It makes us his holy priesthood,
purified, justified and soon to be glorified, beautifully serving his
purpose.
But how does God being outside the universe make him omniscient?
Simply, time is a dimension of this universe. If God is outside this
universe then the dimensions that make up our existance are irrelevant to
him.
The mind boggles to understand anything like that however so I'll leave the
rest to you.
Nothing I have read in scripture or seen in the world around me is in
opposition to my ideas and some hint that im right. Its logical... if God
cant see sin then he must be where there IS no sin. If God is going to be
"All in All" in the future, then he isnt "All in All" now. If God is bound
by time then how can he see the end from the begining?
He knows everything :).
Ps 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is
infinite (Hebrew "Micpah" which is literally uncountable).
We find very little about this stuff because it is not necessary for us to
know... interesting but not necessary. So scripture is sketchy to say the
least.
O and about Job, God didnt dismiss everything said by Job & co at all. He
dismissed their conclusions but not their facts. Without the book of Job our
theology would be profoundly lacking.... you just have to be sure of the
context as with all scripture.
Love makes God make the world go round!
:)
Luv Matthew (Smilie) Lyon
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