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 | | From: | Muz | | Subject: | Re: Eternal Security (OSAS) | | Date: | Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:08:49 GMT |
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 | >Of course they had choice!
>If they had no choice but to sin, then that means God is the one
responsible
>for sin (as you say in your other post). And this in itself would make
a God
>a sinner.
>Would them not sinning have ruined his plan? Why not accept them into
the
>ranks of the Angels? It would have ruined nothing. Another man could
be
>formed and given the same choice.
Answer this, then: What if God omnisciently and definately knows that
they will sin, but when the time comes, they do not? What was wrong?
God's knowledge, or man's choice?
>But the real question again is "HOW is God omniscient?"
>It is my understanding that God is outside of this universe. That as
big as
>>this universe is, it cannot encompass God. This universe was created
>specifically seperate from Gods direct will (He uses the Angels to do
all
>his work here) so that sin could exist. Because without sin every
person
>created would be automatons... individual unique automatons. The
Angels are
>awesomely powerful so dont think this in any way limits Gods influence
as
>they could if it was Gods will make EVERYONE worship God.... but again
if
>they did this everone would be automatons.
Who is Jesus Christ, then? God MUST be able to interact with us, if he
is to be Immanuel, God with us. The fact is that God does much of His
own work, here.
I would agree that God exists outside this universe, but that does not
imply that the entire timeline, including the future is fixed
(obviously the past is, but that's another story.) If the future is
fixed, then someone has fixed our decisions for us. Who could have
done that?
As for Job,check out Job 42:2-3
"2 "I know that Thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of Thine
can be thwarted. 3 'Who is this that hides counsel without
knowledge?' "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
Job admits that everything he said is invalid.
The book of Job is intended to detail the human response to suffering
and to get us to identify with Job and his friends, so that in the end,
God can crush the pride of our human wisdom. To cite the laments of
Job and his friends is to make the same mistake they made.
Muz
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| | From: | Smilie | | Subject: | Re: Eternal Security (OSAS) | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:12:48 GMT |
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| >Answer this, then: What if God omnisciently and definately knows that
>they will sin, but when the time comes, they do not?What was wrong?
>God's knowledge, or man's choice?
It was mans choice, we know that.
We also know that God knew man would sin.
Gods knowledge of the future has been proven over and over to be true.
By this I know that what has yet to occur will occur as prophesied.
It is my choice whether I serve God or not. This is true and right, becuase
if I was forced then my worship would be worthless.
Gods forknowledge is irrelevant to my decision.
> Who is Jesus Christ, then? God MUST be able to interact with us, if he
> is to be Immanuel, God with us. The fact is that God does much of His
> own work, here.
Jesus Christ is the son of God. You know that.
He displayed Gods character to everyone.
God can interact with us by proxy through the angels who Christ now
commands. This doesnt limit Gods influence either.
The fact is that all work done by his angels is his work.
The fact is that Christ dying on the cross was his work.
God is revealed and acts through others. Thats how we have types and
antitypes all through scripture.
Genesis 18. Here God talks with god.... right? Wrong. He talks with the
Angel acting as God at that time.
God is unapproachable, angels and Christ arent.
> I would agree that God exists outside this universe, but that does not
> imply that the entire timeline, including the future is fixed
> (obviously the past is, but that's another story.) If the future is
> fixed, then someone has fixed our decisions for us. Who could have
> done that?
God knows what will happen. Hes given us free will in our choices.
These statements are not mutually exclusive, if they were then you would
be right and then God is responsible for sin.
> Job admits that everything he said is invalid.
He admits he spoke without wisdom. He spoke in anger. He lost his top.
He blurted out his righteousness and God showed him his error.
Be very careful in discounting any scripture. It is ALL for our learning.
Job and his friends lived in a time that had 4th hand information given from
the Angels. (Angels taught Adam. Methuselah lived during the latter part
of Adams life and the 1st 100 years of Shem. Shem was alive at this time)
They had knowledge we do not, thats how they could speak like they did.
But they didnt have the completeness of the scripture we have now.
So how much of scripture do you skip over?
You cant read Job because none but the last 4 chapters are wholely correct
You cant read the psalms because its poetry.
You cant read revelation because it is in signs and symbols.
You cant read exodus, leviticus, numbers or dueteronomy because the law
is fulfilled.
You cant read many of the prophets for the same reason as revelation.
How far do we go?
"ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
DOCTRINE,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Job no less. Without Job we would be alot poorer in our understanding of
God.
If someone missqoutes in any way, say so. I did not misqoute.
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