Just in case folks didn't see this:

---

Slashdot: Are Extensible Programming Languages Coming?
Programming
Posted by michael on Tuesday January 18, @06:49PM
from the tabs!-spaces!-tabs!-spaces! dept.
gManZboy writes "Programming writer and instructor Greg Wilson is
proposing that the next generation of programming languages will use
XML to store not only such things as formatting (so you can see
indentation your way, and I can see it my way, via XSLT) but even
programmatic entities -- like: method="myMethod">record. Wacky, but
perhaps wacky enough to be possible?"

http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/18/2157249&tid=156
---

~T

From:	Cv.
Subject:	Re: Slashdot: Greenspun's Rule In Action
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:34:18 -0000

Why do you care and when are you going to stop reading slashdot?

Misinformation for nerds, FUD is what matters

You better visit a cook recipes site.. At least you learn something new and
don't have to read idiotic linux zealots spreading their ignorance.

From:	Kenny Tilton
Subject:	Re: Slashdot: Greenspun's Rule In Action
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:20:13 GMT

taltman wrote:

> Just in case folks didn't see this:
>
> ---
>
> Slashdot: Are Extensible Programming Languages Coming?
> Programming
> Posted by michael on Tuesday January 18, @06:49PM
> from the tabs!-spaces!-tabs!-spaces! dept.
> gManZboy writes "Programming writer and instructor Greg Wilson is
> proposing that the next generation of programming languages will use
> XML to store not only such things as formatting (so you can see
> indentation your way, and I can see it my way, via XSLT) but even
> programmatic entities -- like: > method="myMethod">record. Wacky, but
> perhaps wacky enough to be possible?"

You are in good company in mis-applying Greenspun's Tenth here. The
tenth is about application code written in C or Fortran ad-hoccing Lisp.

The above is about a language (or at least a standard general-purpose
source tool) carefully adopting (not ad hoc) some Lisp feature.

What we have here is confirmation of Tilton's Observation, which is that
the Fortran evolutionary branch is growing towards the light over on the
Lisp side of the language tree.

kt

--
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film

From:	Bruce Stephens
Subject:	Re: Slashdot: Greenspun's Rule In Action
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:22:48 +0000

Christian Lynbech writes:

[...]

> This actually one of the better issues of ACM Queue. The interview
> with Alan Kay is alone worth hunting down the issue for.

Free subscription, but no space for a country, so I'm guessing it's US
only. (Which is probably tricky to avoid; it seems to be funded by
advertising.) Never mind, maybe the interview will be put online one
day.

I enjoyed Kay's Stanford seminar about Croquet (there's a link from
this page ). Not so much for
the Croquet content (to be honest I don't see the point), but for the
extended rant against almost everything done in the last 30 years or
so in computer science which happens in the Q&A section.

From:	Pascal Bourguignon
Subject:	Re: Slashdot: Greenspun's Rule In Action
Date:	19 Jan 2005 22:02:31 +0100

Kenny Tilton writes:

> taltman wrote:
>
> > Just in case folks didn't see this:
> > ---
> > Slashdot: Are Extensible Programming Languages Coming?
> > Programming
> > Posted by michael on Tuesday January 18, @06:49PM
> > from the tabs!-spaces!-tabs!-spaces! dept.
> > gManZboy writes "Programming writer and instructor Greg Wilson is
> > proposing that the next generation of programming languages will use
> > XML to store not only such things as formatting (so you can see
> > indentation your way, and I can see it my way, via XSLT) but even
> > programmatic entities -- like: > > method="myMethod">record. Wacky, but
> > perhaps wacky enough to be possible?"
>
> You are in good company in mis-applying Greenspun's Tenth here. The
> tenth is about application code written in C or Fortran ad-hoccing
> Lisp.
>
> The above is about a language (or at least a standard general-purpose
> source tool) carefully adopting (not ad hoc) some Lisp feature.
>
> What we have here is confirmation of Tilton's Observation, which is
> that the Fortran evolutionary branch is growing towards the light over
> on the Lisp side of the language tree.

While the reticences of businesses to switch from FORTRAN or Cobol to
LISP might be understandable, why on earth would these people without
legacy applications need to take such small and convoluted steps to
evoluate toward Common-Lisp?

--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
I need a new toy.
Tail of black dog keeps good time.
Pounce! Good dog! Good dog!

From:	Kenny Tilton
Subject:	Re: Slashdot: Greenspun's Rule In Action
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:17:40 GMT

Pascal Bourguignon wrote:

> Kenny Tilton writes:
>
>
>>taltman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Just in case folks didn't see this:
>>>---
>>>Slashdot: Are Extensible Programming Languages Coming?
>>>Programming
>>>Posted by michael on Tuesday January 18, @06:49PM
>>>from the tabs!-spaces!-tabs!-spaces! dept.
>>>gManZboy writes "Programming writer and instructor Greg Wilson is
>>>proposing that the next generation of programming languages will use
>>>XML to store not only such things as formatting (so you can see
>>>indentation your way, and I can see it my way, via XSLT) but even
>>>programmatic entities -- like: >>>method="myMethod">record. Wacky, but
>>>perhaps wacky enough to be possible?"
>>
>>You are in good company in mis-applying Greenspun's Tenth here. The
>>tenth is about application code written in C or Fortran ad-hoccing
>>Lisp.
>>
>>The above is about a language (or at least a standard general-purpose
>>source tool) carefully adopting (not ad hoc) some Lisp feature.
>>
>>What we have here is confirmation of Tilton's Observation, which is
>>that the Fortran evolutionary branch is growing towards the light over
>>on the Lisp side of the language tree.
>
>
> While the reticences of businesses to switch from FORTRAN or Cobol to
> LISP might be understandable, why on earth would these people without
> legacy applications need to take such small and convoluted steps to
> evoluate toward Common-Lisp?

Well, there is this in common with Greenspun: they do not /know/ they
are implementing Lisp, nor do they know they are drifting towards Lisp.

If it is pointed out to them, or if, as in this case and others we have
seen, the heritage is made explicit, they still know Lisp is dead, Lisp
is slow, no one uses Lisp, etc etc.

Give them time. Look at cll. You can't put your foot down without
stepping on a newbie rugrat. Peter's book should kick off a firestorm,
and if Graham releases Arc... fuggedaboutit. Interestingly, it will be
the death of C++ and Scheme both, because Graham is after Scheme's thunder.

But it will be one of those binary deals, where the arrow spins pi
radians in an instant.

my2

kt

--
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film

From:	Jonathan Bartlett
Subject:	Re: Slashdot: Greenspun's Rule In Action
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:26:24 -0500

> Give them time. Look at cll. You can't put your foot down without
> stepping on a newbie rugrat. Peter's book should kick off a firestorm,
> and if Graham releases Arc... fuggedaboutit. Interestingly, it will be
> the death of C++ and Scheme both, because Graham is after Scheme's thunder.

What is Peter's book?

Jon
----
Learn to program using Linux assembly language
http://www.cafeshops.com/bartlettpublish.8640017

From:	Mario S. Mommer
Subject:	Re: Slashdot: Greenspun's Rule In Action
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:42:45 +0100

Christian Lynbech writes:
>>>>>> "Kenny" == Kenny Tilton writes:
>
> Kenny> Bruce Stephens wrote:
>
>>> .
>
> Even if he thinks that Lisp and smalltalk are obsolete, he still has
> lots of good insights into what is going on with programming
> languages.

How can /that/ be?

> One interesting thing is that he explains the apparent popularity of
> lesser languages from the point of view that we are having a
> pop-culture, the inevitable result of pumping more people into the
> field than we do education.

I hope someone gives him a prize for such an eminently original
discovery.

From:	Bulent Murtezaoglu
Subject:	Re: Slashdot: Greenspun's Rule In Action
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:36:16 +0200

>>>>> "BS" == Bruce Stephens writes:
[...]
BS> Free subscription, but no space for a country, so I'm guessing
BS> it's US only. [...]

Gets delivered here (Istanbul Turkey), no problem. I haven't quite
figured out why as I don't recall filling anything out. I think maybe
it gets sent to all acm members regardless of where they are. ACM isn't
that good at web stuff, it may be an oversight if the form is missing
fields.

cheers,

BM

From:	Bruce Stephens
Subject:	Re: Slashdot: Greenspun's Rule In Action
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:41:17 +0000

Jonathan Bartlett writes:

[...]

> What is Peter's book?

"Practical Common Lisp": .

From:	Christian Lynbech
Subject:	Re: Slashdot: Greenspun's Rule In Action
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:38:18 +0100

>>>>> "Kenny" == Kenny Tilton writes:

Kenny> Bruce Stephens wrote:

>> .

This actually one of the better issues of ACM Queue. The interview
with Alan Kay is alone worth hunting down the issue for. Even if he
thinks that Lisp and smalltalk are obsolete, he still has lots of good
insights into what is going on with programming languages.

One interesting thing is that he explains the apparent popularity of
lesser languages from the point of view that we are having a
pop-culture, the inevitable result of pumping more people into the
field than we do education.

------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Christian Lynbech | christian #\@ defun #\. dk
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual.
- petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)