Hey there fellow Lispers,

I have some somewhat strange dilemmas on my hands, I'm a uni student
studying Computer Science with Games Dev, and a few months ago I
started programming Lisp. Through attending lectures about C#, I
realised that there are alot of benefits in using Lisp over C#.

One of my problems is that half my lecturers think Lisp is a "Toy
language", because there are apparently "little jobs available", and
it is apparently "outdated", so they are constantly trying to deter me
from the idea. So I constantly ask them, If it is so outdated, why can
I do everything that I would usually do in C/C++/C#, in Lisp? But they
never give me any genuine answers, because most of them don't even
know the language. Feeling compelled to prove one my lecturers wrong,
I sent him some franz links to show how Lisp has had some success, but
he never answered the e-mail.

Most of my fellow computer scientist buddies think it's *funny* that I
program in Lisp because "no one else does - so it must be shit". This
kind of attitude is getting _seriously_ irritating. So what is it
about Lisp that makes people this way? Why do I always end up arguing
with everyone when I mention Lisp? How can I prevent getting into
flamewars anytime I mention it? It's irritating in itself because I
feel the need to advocate it, as one would if one was faced with a
better technology, yet no one ever listens.

From:	Kenny Tilton
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:03:49 GMT

Edward Tate wrote:
> Hey there fellow Lispers,
>
> I have some somewhat strange dilemmas on my hands, I'm a uni student
> studying Computer Science with Games Dev, and a few months ago I
> started programming Lisp. Through attending lectures about C#, I
> realised that there are alot of benefits in using Lisp over C#.
>
> One of my problems is that half my lecturers think Lisp is a "Toy
> language", because there are apparently "little jobs available",

OK, but you are attending uni, not vocational school.

Besides, Lisp is taking off and when the jobs appear you will be ready.
It also sounds as if you are also learning enough C* to put them on the
resume, which is all that matters.

Listing "Lisp" first will set you off from the crowd and land you
interviews others won't get.

and
> it is apparently "outdated", so they are constantly trying to deter me
> from the idea.

Thank them, tell them they are right, and admit you are taking a risk.

>... So I constantly ask them, If it is so outdated, why can
> I do everything that I would usually do in C/C++/C#, in Lisp? But they
> never give me any genuine answers, because most of them don't even
> know the language.

Actually, even those of us who know the language are not sure why after
almost fifty years of language development Lisp is still the most
modern. We are thinking McCarthy is an alien.

> Feeling compelled to prove one my lecturers wrong,...

Oh, god, do not do that. Nobody likes that, but academics are the worst.

> I sent him some franz links to show how Lisp has had some success, but
> he never answered the e-mail.

Watch your snail mail instead, for a pipe bomb.

>
> Most of my fellow computer scientist buddies think it's *funny* that I
> program in Lisp because "no one else does - so it must be shit". This
> kind of attitude is getting _seriously_ irritating. So what is it
> about Lisp that makes people this way?

History.

> Why do I always end up arguing
> with everyone when I mention Lisp?

Come on, you had to know you were making a controversial albeit wise choice.

> How can I prevent getting into
> flamewars anytime I mention it?

First, acknowledge their points about it being old, about no one using
it, about there being no jobs. That will defuse the war thing. Then say
"But I love and get my work done so fast
and it is so much fun I cannot stop." When they bring up the job thing
again, admit you are doomed. In brief, do not argue, just keep bringing
the subject back to the language itself and specific features. Steer
away from the popularity issue and towards the feature issue. This is
uni, right? A chance to explore and learn? Is academic freedom only for
the profs?

You can also say "hopefully I can parlay this into Python or Ruby or
Groovy (new, dynamic Java thingy) work, they all have heritage in Lisp".

Another thing you can do is print up cards with URLs of the FRanz site,
Graham's site, Peter's upcoming PCL, and The Road to Lisp Survey (see my
sig) and say, "It's a long story." And include links to Eckel's and
Martin's blogs where they admit strong static typing is doomed.

> It's irritating in itself because I
> feel the need to advocate it, as one would if one was faced with a
> better technology, yet no one ever listens.

Cells!

:)

kenny

--
Cells? Cello? Cells-Gtkk?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Land o' Kenny? http://www.tilton-technology.com/index.html

Obligatory quote to make me seem cool:

"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd

From:	Svein Ove Aas
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 00:54:15 +0100

start quoting Kenny Tilton :

> Another thing you can do is print up cards with URLs of the FRanz site,
> Graham's site, Peter's upcoming PCL, and The Road to Lisp Survey (see my
> sig) and say, "It's a long story." And include links to Eckel's and
> Martin's blogs where they admit strong static typing is doomed.
>
I've been searching for these; please tell me where to find them.

> Cells!

Documentation! _Please_!

^_^

- Svein Ove Aas

From:	Kenny Tilton
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:19:47 GMT

Svein Ove Aas wrote:

> start quoting Kenny Tilton :
>
>
>>Another thing you can do is print up cards with URLs of the FRanz site,
>>Graham's site, Peter's upcoming PCL, and The Road to Lisp Survey (see my
>>sig) and say, "It's a long story." And include links to Eckel's and
>>Martin's blogs where they admit strong static typing is doomed.
>>
>
> I've been searching for these; please tell me where to find them.

Which ones? Most are easily googleable. You mean Bruse Eckel's and
Robert Martin's?

>
>
>>Cells!
>
>
> Documentation! _Please_!

:c (c? (sqrt (+ (expt (^a) 2)(expt (^b) 2))))

kt

--
Cells? Cello? Cells-Gtkk?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Land o' Kenny? http://www.tilton-technology.com/index.html

Obligatory quote to make me seem cool:

"Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to
state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd

From:	John Thingstad
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 22:17:03 +0100

On 23 Jan 2005 08:01:58 -0800, Edward Tate wrote:

> Hey there fellow Lispers,
>
> I have some somewhat strange dilemmas on my hands, I'm a uni student
> studying Computer Science with Games Dev, and a few months ago I
> started programming Lisp. Through attending lectures about C#, I
> realised that there are alot of benefits in using Lisp over C#.
>
> One of my problems is that half my lecturers think Lisp is a "Toy
> language", because there are apparently "little jobs available", and
> it is apparently "outdated", so they are constantly trying to deter me
> from the idea. So I constantly ask them, If it is so outdated, why can
> I do everything that I would usually do in C/C++/C#, in Lisp? But they
> never give me any genuine answers, because most of them don't even
> know the language. Feeling compelled to prove one my lecturers wrong,
> I sent him some franz links to show how Lisp has had some success, but
> he never answered the e-mail.
>
> Most of my fellow computer scientist buddies think it's *funny* that I
> program in Lisp because "no one else does - so it must be shit". This
> kind of attitude is getting _seriously_ irritating. So what is it
> about Lisp that makes people this way? Why do I always end up arguing
> with everyone when I mention Lisp? How can I prevent getting into
> flamewars anytime I mention it? It's irritating in itself because I
> feel the need to advocate it, as one would if one was faced with a
> better technology, yet no one ever listens.

My experience is that Lisp appeals to the mathematically inclined.
Long before I discovered Lisp I was studying the theory of computation and
realized the beauty of the my-recursive functions (Church's thesis).
I started wondering why mathematicians didn't address the inadequacy
of logic. That it couldn't even define a irrational number. Logically
induction, one of the primary proof methods, doses not comply
to the rules of logic because it uses the conclusion in the premises.
Obviously nature uses causality so a expression of the rules of
nature must be based on causality too. That kind of stuff.

Some people are thinkers by nature. I am one of them.
Some people like to follow the heard.
The guy that simply wants job security and a solid pay check
is more likely to choose Java since it is more used and there
is a greater demand for jobs in it.
Lisper's seem to be of a breed of people that are passionate about
programming. I believe Paul Graham touches on the subject in
"Hackers and painters"

To my competitors I also recommend Java... ;)

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

From:	Andras Simon
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	24 Jan 2005 11:26:20 +0100

"John Thingstad" writes:

> My experience is that Lisp appeals to the mathematically inclined.

This may be true.

But the rest:

> Long before I discovered Lisp I was studying the theory of computation and
> realized the beauty of the my-recursive functions (Church's thesis).
> I started wondering why mathematicians didn't address the inadequacy
> of logic. That it couldn't even define a irrational number. Logically
> induction, one of the primary proof methods, doses not comply
> to the rules of logic because it uses the conclusion in the premises.
> Obviously nature uses causality so a expression of the rules of
> nature must be based on causality too. That kind of stuff.

is nonsense.

Sorry.

Andras

From:	Tayssir John Gabbour
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	23 Jan 2005 10:16:41 -0800

Edward Tate wrote:
> Most of my fellow computer scientist buddies think it's *funny* that
I
> program in Lisp because "no one else does - so it must be shit". This
> kind of attitude is getting _seriously_ irritating. So what is it
> about Lisp that makes people this way? Why do I always end up arguing
> with everyone when I mention Lisp? How can I prevent getting into
> flamewars anytime I mention it? It's irritating in itself because I
> feel the need to advocate it, as one would if one was faced with a
> better technology, yet no one ever listens.

I've wondered this myself, and I've come to learn that CS is
fundamentally corrupted. Dick Feynman explains how long it took
physicists to learn honesty, and thereby be a real science:

"But this long history of learning how to not fool ourselves--of having
utter scientific integrity--is, I'm sorry to say, something that we
haven't specifically included in any particular course that I know of.
We just hope you've caught on by osmosis... So I have just one wish
for you--the good luck to be somewhere where you are free to maintain
the kind of integrity I have described, and where you do not feel
forced by a need to maintain your position in the organization, or
financial support, or so on, to lose your integrity. May you have that
freedom." http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.html

Computer "science" people rather take on the trappings of scientists
they see on TV -- stuffed shirts making weighty pronouncements. With
faith in tech darwinism:

"In short, the concepts of "economic viability" and "technical
viability" are not really economic or technical categories at all -- as
our ideological inheritance suggest -- but political and cultural
categories."
http://www.nooranch.com/synaesmedia/wiki/wiki.cgi?DavidNoble/ForcesOfProduction

I believe the need to advocate is an interesting impulse that is
exaggerated in us, since we're literally used to lying "evangelists"
who glibly push their tools without giving a damn about our actual
problems. However, there are many meat & potatoes things within Lisp
which solve people's problems, and it's convenient to say, "Well here's
a good idea from Lisp which solves that problem, so you could maybe
pressure your language designer to include it in a future version..."

"And you're right: we were not out to win over the Lisp programmers; we
were after the C++ programmers. We managed to drag a lot of them about
halfway to Lisp. Aren't you happy?" -- Guy Steele, Java language
specification co-author

And hey, if computer "scientists" like their Britney-and-McD's tools,
let them be. They're commissars, and their role is to authoritatively
repeat things without knowing what they're talking about.

MfG,
Tayssir

From:	Don Wells
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:18:57 -0500

Most people can not turn off thier ability to hear, but people can and
do turn off thier ability to listen.

Don Wells

On 23 Jan 2005 08:01:58 -0800, eddycool666@hotmail.com (Edward Tate)
wrote:

>Hey there fellow Lispers,
>
>I have some somewhat strange dilemmas on my hands, I'm a uni student
>studying Computer Science with Games Dev, and a few months ago I
>started programming Lisp. Through attending lectures about C#, I
>realised that there are alot of benefits in using Lisp over C#.
>
>One of my problems is that half my lecturers think Lisp is a "Toy
>language", because there are apparently "little jobs available", and
>it is apparently "outdated", so they are constantly trying to deter me
>from the idea. So I constantly ask them, If it is so outdated, why can
>I do everything that I would usually do in C/C++/C#, in Lisp? But they
>never give me any genuine answers, because most of them don't even
>know the language. Feeling compelled to prove one my lecturers wrong,
>I sent him some franz links to show how Lisp has had some success, but
>he never answered the e-mail.
>
>Most of my fellow computer scientist buddies think it's *funny* that I
>program in Lisp because "no one else does - so it must be shit". This
>kind of attitude is getting _seriously_ irritating. So what is it
>about Lisp that makes people this way? Why do I always end up arguing
>with everyone when I mention Lisp? How can I prevent getting into
>flamewars anytime I mention it? It's irritating in itself because I
>feel the need to advocate it, as one would if one was faced with a
>better technology, yet no one ever listens.

From:	eddycool666 at hotmail.com
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	23 Jan 2005 12:00:54 -0800

Wow, ever got that *I'm not alone* feeling? I certainly didn't expect
so many interesting responses so quickly, it has given me alot to think
about.

The thing that shocked me the most about some of my lecturers
disagreeing with me, was that they are meant to be respectable
intelligent computer scientists. It doesn't really make sense to me
that someone passionate enough about computing to become a lecturer can
choose to ignore such an awesome technology. I literally program about
double as much as I used to because it's become so much fun. I find I
can literally write a program in Lisp and that can act as my
algorithmic designs(I just remove the parentheses) for my coursework
assignments - It's an invaluable helping tool that no one knows about.

Maybe some of you are right in saying I should just keep it to myself,
as my own personal advantage, I just can't help but wonder whether the
world will ever wake up.

From:	BR
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:04:48 -0500

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:00:54 -0800, eddycool666 wrote:

> Maybe some of you are right in saying I should just keep it to myself,
> as my own personal advantage, I just can't help but wonder whether the
> world will ever wake up.

Give 'em time. One can't change the world in a day.

From:	Stefan Scholl
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 21:58:16 +0100

On 2005-01-23 21:00:54, eddycool666@hotmail.com wrote:

> I just can't help but wonder whether the
> world will ever wake up.

There's much traffic in comp.lang.lisp, many people on channel #lisp
(Freenode), a growing Wiki on , and more and
more projects on .

From:	Ng Pheng Siong
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:13:44 +0000 (UTC)

According to Edward Tate :
> Most of my fellow computer scientist buddies think it's *funny* that I
> program in Lisp because "no one else does - so it must be shit". This
> kind of attitude is getting _seriously_ irritating.

So find better buddies to hang around with.

--
Ng Pheng Siong

http://sandbox.rulemaker.net/ngps -+- M2Crypto, ZServerSSL for Zope, Blog
http://www.sqlcrypt.com -+- Database Engine with Transparent AES Encryption

From:	Stefan Scholl
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:04:32 +0100

On 2005-01-23 17:01:58, Edward Tate wrote:

> How can I prevent getting into
> flamewars anytime I mention it?

Don't mention it. :-)

You can't force them to think like you (or comp.lang.lisp). Just use
the tool which fits _you_ and invest your time into learning Common
Lisp instead of doing advocacy.

From:	Wade Humeniuk
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 16:53:26 GMT

Edward Tate wrote:
> One of my problems is that half my lecturers think Lisp is a "Toy
> language", because there are apparently "little jobs available", and
> it is apparently "outdated", so they are constantly trying to deter me
> from the idea. So I constantly ask them, If it is so outdated, why can
> I do everything that I would usually do in C/C++/C#, in Lisp? But they
> never give me any genuine answers, because most of them don't even
> know the language. Feeling compelled to prove one my lecturers wrong,
> I sent him some franz links to show how Lisp has had some success, but
> he never answered the e-mail.
>
> Most of my fellow computer scientist buddies think it's *funny* that I
> program in Lisp because "no one else does - so it must be shit". This
> kind of attitude is getting _seriously_ irritating. So what is it
> about Lisp that makes people this way? Why do I always end up arguing
> with everyone when I mention Lisp? How can I prevent getting into
> flamewars anytime I mention it? It's irritating in itself because I
> feel the need to advocate it, as one would if one was faced with a
> better technology, yet no one ever listens.

Part of it may be is that you are uncomfortable using Lisp and that
you stand out. Another is that, though you may not like to admit
it, you care what other people think of you. Your friends feel the
same way, they really care what others think of them, especially
how the professors view them. I agree with you on your choice
of Lisp, it takes guts to not follow the human societal instincts.

Do well in your courses, do your best, then you will be able to look
at yourself in the mirror. Do not think that no one listens. I
would think its a even bet they go home at night and secretly
check out what this Lisp thing is all about.

Wade

From:	Trent Buck
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:53:47 GMT

Up spake Kenny Tilton:
>> One of my problems is that half my lecturers think Lisp is a "Toy
>> language", because there are apparently "little jobs available",

That's funny, substitute "Linux" for "Lisp" and you have me, three years
ago. Nobody says "There are no Linux jobs" anymore.

> OK, but you are attending uni, not vocational school.

There's not much difference, down here, anyway. The only unis that
haven't moved to "business-oriented" CompSci courses seem to be the ones
who run it as part of the Faculty of Electrical Engineering (rather than
Faculty of IT).

Nobody else even wants to teach algorithms anymore, just Java APIs.
Programming is a *subset* of Computer Science, dammit!

> >... So I constantly ask them, If it is so outdated, why can
> > I do everything that I would usually do in C/C++/C#, in Lisp? But they
> > never give me any genuine answers, because most of them don't even
> > know the language.

Yep. The best way to do advocacy is to watch them struggle with $foo
for a bit, then say "Oh, $foo. That's really easy in Lisp, because it
has $bar."

If you do this frequently enough, people with either think 1) you're a
nutter; or 2) shit, maybe he's on to something. You tend to get the
latter more often if you are demonstrably more productive, but be
prepared for a few of the former.

> Actually, even those of us who know the language are not sure why after
> almost fifty years of language development Lisp is still the most
> modern. We are thinking McCarthy is an alien.

He's a star child, and Lisp the the black monolith :-)

>> I sent him some franz links to show how Lisp has had some success, but
>> he never answered the e-mail.

I really hate when they do that. At my current Uni, most units have a
group on the private Usenet node, and most of the tutors and assistant
lecturers read it. (The lecturers don't, because they're only lecturing
because it's a condition of their grant.) What's important is that when
someone posts a question, at least half of the answers are from other
students.

Try to organize a many-to-many forum with the bright students, and hope
that the rest (and the academic staff) will join in when they realize it
works.

> > Most of my fellow computer scientist buddies think it's *funny* that I
> > program in Lisp because "no one else does - so it must be shit". This
> > kind of attitude is getting _seriously_ irritating. So what is it
> > about Lisp that makes people this way?
>
> History.

I would call it inertia, or the momentum of opposing views.

> > Why do I always end up arguing
> > with everyone when I mention Lisp?

You're probably not a good disputant / advocate, yet (I know I'm not).
--
-trent
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and
wrong. -- H. L. Mencken

From:	William Bland
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:00:41 GMT

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:01:58 -0800, Edward Tate wrote:

> Most of my fellow computer scientist buddies think it's *funny* that I
> program in Lisp because "no one else does - so it must be shit". This
> kind of attitude is getting _seriously_ irritating. So what is it
> about Lisp that makes people this way? Why do I always end up arguing
> with everyone when I mention Lisp? How can I prevent getting into
> flamewars anytime I mention it? It's irritating in itself because I
> feel the need to advocate it, as one would if one was faced with a
> better technology, yet no one ever listens.

I've had similar experiences in the past. You have to be smart and subtle
about this. You have to make other people think *they* discovered Lisp.
For better or worse, you have to allow people to change their minds while
not having to admit their minds have been changed.

I ran up against all the usual "write it in Lisp?! We'd need a
supercomputer!" comments when I started my current job and advocated Lisp.
I stopped advocating it that way, because I saw I was getting nowhere.

These days I give people *little* bits of Lisp advocacy. And I pretend
it's not advocacy - it's just interesting information. So instead of
telling people that we should rewrite the entire project in Lisp, I just
drop in little "Lisp has an interesting way of doing this..." comments,
especially when pair-programming. I've found it works a *lot* better.
Oh, and when people give their knee-jerk reactions (e.g. "yeah, but Lisp
is really slow") I *don't* immediately correct them. That would just get
us into a flamewar, the problem being that they couldn't easily change
their viewpoint later without looking silly. A good diversionary tactic is
something like "well, we should probably get back to this refactoring".
It means you don't have to react to their comments at all.

There are two other people at work now who are studying Lisp (which is a
large percentage of our small team) and they seem to be liking it a lot,
to the extent that they now complain about Java's missing features!

Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Bill.

From:	Iain Little
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:49:37 +1100

eddycool666@hotmail.com (Edward Tate) writes:

> Most of my fellow computer scientist buddies think it's *funny* that I
> program in Lisp because "no one else does - so it must be shit". This
> kind of attitude is getting _seriously_ irritating. So what is it
> about Lisp that makes people this way? Why do I always end up arguing
> with everyone when I mention Lisp? How can I prevent getting into
> flamewars anytime I mention it? It's irritating in itself because I
> feel the need to advocate it, as one would if one was faced with a
> better technology, yet no one ever listens.

There is something about Lisp that really, really connects with some
people. A different way of thinking. An entire different attitude
towards programming.

When someone who is really suited to Lisp meets it for the first time,
they are stunned and amazed that such a thing existed and that they
didn't know about it. They then wonder why everyone isn't using it,
and then make it their mission to bring Lisp to the world.

The thing is, most people don't want to change their attitude towards
programming. And where a Lispnik sees the beauty and simplicity of
s-expressions, most people just see a funny syntax with too many
parenthesis that makes their head hurt. Many of the uninitiated might
change their mind if they got deep enough into the language to
discover the power of macros, or any of the other goodies that are
hidden there. But many would not. There are people out there who
actually like and depend on the bondage style of programming, where
everything that you do is limited and carefully constrained.

This is something that everyone who really connects with Lisp
eventually has to deal with; that there are people out there, possibly
even the majority, who arn't really suited to Lisp at all, and don't
want to listen to people constantly advocating it. The real tragedy
is that this majority does its best to push Lisp out of the limelight,
so that many of those that are suited to it never find it.

My advice is to take a mostly passive approach to advocacy, and to
advocate Lisp first and foremost by using it. If someone asks you
what your favorite language is, or what language you are using for a
particular project, then tell them. And if they ask you why, then
tell them that too. By intriguing them and getting them to take the
initiative, there is a much better chance that they'll actually take a
serious look at it than if you advocate it as the One True Solution
For Everything. (There are so many people doing this in computing for
so many different things that pushing something that hard is almost an
instant turn-off.)

But most of all, understand that you are far from the only one to go
through this experience. I went through it myself.

Iain

From:	Rajat Datta
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:00:10 GMT

On 23 Jan 2005 08:01:58 -0800, Edward Tate wrote:
> ... stuff deleted ...
> Most of my fellow computer scientist buddies think it's *funny* that I
> program in Lisp because "no one else does - so it must be shit". This
> kind of attitude is getting _seriously_ irritating. So what is it
> about Lisp that makes people this way? Why do I always end up arguing
> with everyone when I mention Lisp? How can I prevent getting into
> flamewars anytime I mention it? It's irritating in itself because I
> feel the need to advocate it, as one would if one was faced with a
> better technology, yet no one ever listens.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is stoned.
raja

From:	Rahul Jain
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:22:35 -0500

eddycool666@hotmail.com (Edward Tate) writes:

> One of my problems is that half my lecturers think Lisp is a "Toy
> language", because there are apparently "little jobs available", and
> it is apparently "outdated", so they are constantly trying to deter me
> from the idea. So I constantly ask them, If it is so outdated, why can
> I do everything that I would usually do in C/C++/C#, in Lisp?

I consider C/C++/C# to be toy languages because their feature sets are
so outdated. If I wanted to use a languge from 1950, it would be 1950
right now. It's 2005; I'll use a language for the future,
thankyouverymuch.

--
Rahul Jain
rjain@nyct.net
Professional Software Developer, Amateur Quantum Mechanicist

From:	Andreas Thiele
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 01:37:57 +0100

"Rahul Jain" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:87r7kcympw.fsf@nyct.net...
....
>
> I consider C/C++/C# to be toy languages because their feature sets are
> so outdated. If I wanted to use a languge from 1950, it would be 1950
> right now. It's 2005; I'll use a language for the future,
> thankyouverymuch.
>
....
Well, I am an absolute Lisp fan. Thinking about my current work, I don't
know how to do it in any other language. I'm sure I will not have any
performance drawback but have even better performance than comparable
C-Software.

But, if somebody asks me which language I'd choose to write really *fast*
audio/video processing software for PCs, I'd still suggest assembler and
C/C++.

Andreas

From:	Oyvin Halfdan Thuv
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	23 Jan 2005 18:55:08 +0100

eddycool666@hotmail.com (Edward Tate) writes:

> One of my problems is that half my lecturers think Lisp is a "Toy
> language", because there are apparently "little jobs available", and
> it is apparently "outdated", so they are constantly trying to deter me
> from the idea. So I constantly ask them, If it is so outdated, why can
> I do everything that I would usually do in C/C++/C#, in Lisp? But they
> never give me any genuine answers, because most of them don't even
> know the language.

don't be afraid of not being average. Read http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html ,
it is "well put" I'd say.

--
Oyvin

From:	William Bland
Subject:	Re: Lisps' popularity
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:04:55 GMT

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:55:08 +0100, Oyvin Halfdan Thuv wrote:

> eddycool666@hotmail.com (Edward Tate) writes:
>
>> One of my problems is that half my lecturers think Lisp is a "Toy
>> language", because there are apparently "little jobs available", and
>> it is apparently "outdated", so they are constantly trying to deter me
>> from the idea. So I constantly ask them, If it is so outdated, why can
>> I do everything that I would usually do in C/C++/C#, in Lisp? But they
>> never give me any genuine answers, because most of them don't even
>> know the language.
>
> don't be afraid of not being average. Read http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html ,
> it is "well put" I'd say.

That's a good point. These days I don't try quite so hard to advocate
Lisp, because I want to do a start-up some day and I believe Lisp will
give me a competitive advantage. I only bother advocating Lisp to people
I might want to start a company with ;-)

Cheers,
Bill.