OK... I have chosen to go the Microsoft route instead of the Sun router and
have been provided the academic edition of Visual Studio .Net 2003.

Not knowing anything about programming, but wanting to learn, which
language that is part of VS would be best to start with?

Is there a typical path of progression I should take?

My goal is to create simple to moderate windows applications...sometimes
involving database functions, and data manipulation...Im not too concerned
with designing games, or graphic intense apps... mainly functional apps for
various projects as needed....

Which language in VS is most widely used in the business world?

Thanks everyone!

From:	Randy Howard
Subject:	Re: beginner needs advice on Visual Studio
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:46:41 GMT

In article ,
mreed@fusionmagic.com says...
> My goal is to create simple to moderate windows applications...sometimes
> involving database functions, and data manipulation...Im not too concerned
> with designing games, or graphic intense apps... mainly functional apps for
> various projects as needed....

Take a look at the Qt toolkit and Qt Designer from http://www.trolltech.com.

It sits on top of C++ (which should have been included in all those CD's
you received from Microsoft) and allows you to design the type of applications
you describe above. There are several good technical books on Qt, as well
as some excellent online tutorials.

--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)

From:	Mark Reed
Subject:	Re: beginner needs advice on Visual Studio
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:54:03 -0600

Randy Howard wrote in
news:MPG.1c5b6c7d3f16927a989e1d@news.verizon.net:

> In article ,
> mreed@fusionmagic.com says...
>> My goal is to create simple to moderate windows
>> applications...sometimes involving database functions, and data
>> manipulation...Im not too concerned with designing games, or graphic
>> intense apps... mainly functional apps for various projects as
>> needed....
>
> Take a look at the Qt toolkit and Qt Designer from
> http://www.trolltech.com.
>
> It sits on top of C++ (which should have been included in all those
> CD's you received from Microsoft) and allows you to design the type of
> applications you describe above. There are several good technical
> books on Qt, as well as some excellent online tutorials.
>

Thanks Randy... I'll bookmark that info. Being so new to programming
(well..being new doesnt even describe it..clueless is more like it)
I want to start with baby steps with VS... which of the native VS
languages are good to start with?

From:	mhrecuser
Subject:	Re: beginner needs advice on Visual Studio
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:28:41 -0500

Mark Reed wrote:

> Randy Howard wrote in
> news:MPG.1c5b6c7d3f16927a989e1d@news.verizon.net:
>
>> In article ,
>> mreed@fusionmagic.com says...
>>> My goal is to create simple to moderate windows
>>> applications...sometimes involving database functions, and data
>>> manipulation...Im not too concerned with designing games, or graphic
>>> intense apps... mainly functional apps for various projects as
>>> needed....
>>
>> Take a look at the Qt toolkit and Qt Designer from
>> http://www.trolltech.com.
>>
>> It sits on top of C++ (which should have been included in all those
>> CD's you received from Microsoft) and allows you to design the type of
>> applications you describe above. There are several good technical
>> books on Qt, as well as some excellent online tutorials.
>>
>
>
> Thanks Randy... I'll bookmark that info. Being so new to programming
> (well..being new doesnt even describe it..clueless is more like it)
> I want to start with baby steps with VS... which of the native VS
> languages are good to start with?

I recommend C# because the syntax is C-based. Once you get used to it,
other C-based languages like java, C, C++, JavaScript, etc... will be
easier to learn. I recommend not starting with VB because it's syntax is
very different from other languages (although arguably more readable and
easier to learn for non-programmer types). It's a tradeoff.

Matt

From:	Klueless
Subject:	Re: beginner needs advice on Visual Studio
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:28:32 GMT

"Mark Reed" wrote in message news:Xns95E5CC184C6F9mreedfusionmagiccom@216.196.97.142...
> Not knowing anything about programming, but wanting to learn, which
> language that is part of VS would be best to start with?

If you are a beginner and want to get to database programming
quickly, then C# would be a good choice. You can get SAMS
Teach Yourself C# in 24 Hours and be database programming
with ADO.NET by Hour 21, :-) I think SAMS intro books and
Petzold's Programming Windows book are your best choices.
Learn C# and the Visual C++ SDK.
I appreciate the merits of Qt, but I would NOT start a beginner
that has "chosen to go the Microsoft route" and "been provided the
academic edition of Visual Studio .Net 2003". Qt is not part of
Visual Studio .Net 2003 , but something else entirely, and best to
learn if you target Linux or Linux+Windows. However, given your
choices, I recommend C# and Visual C++ SDK first.

From:	Tony Nelson
Subject:	Re: beginner needs advice on Visual Studio
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:02:16 -0500

In article ,
Mark Reed wrote:

> OK... I have chosen to go the Microsoft route instead of the Sun router and
> have been provided the academic edition of Visual Studio .Net 2003.
>
> Not knowing anything about programming, but wanting to learn, which
> language that is part of VS would be best to start with?
>
> Is there a typical path of progression I should take?
>
> My goal is to create simple to moderate windows applications...sometimes
> involving database functions, and data manipulation...Im not too concerned
> with designing games, or graphic intense apps... mainly functional apps for
> various projects as needed....
>
> Which language in VS is most widely used in the business world?
>
> Thanks everyone!

Visual Basic
widely used
also dialects for scripting
VBA
VBScript
simple language
gets crufty sometimes
lots of stuff
lots of books

Java
fairly widely used
fairly complex language
much stuff
many books, some bad

C#
up and coming
"managed"!
new
complex language
good, perhaps, if you're in school and looking forward

C++
Don't even think about starting out with C or C++. I've spent
many years learning the small amount of C++ that I know, and I
know more than most C++ programmers. (Anyone who says they
know "all about" C++ is not to be taken seriously.) "Shoot
yourself in the foot" was practically invented for C, while in
C++, it's "blow your head off" instead. See also "Nasal Demons".

DHTML
See also HTA
MS proprietary HTML extensions in MSIE
Fairly widely used
"Everything in the world is a Web Page"
everything is as "easy" as laying out a Web page (heh).

If you're in school, look around for people who can help you. What they
can help with may influence your choice of language. If they turn out
to all be Borland Delphi users, go with Delphi.
________________________________________________________________________
TonyN.:'
'

From:	Frank Adam
Subject:	Re: beginner needs advice on Visual Studio
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 07:04:14 +1100

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:02:16 -0500, Tony Nelson
wrote:

>Visual Basic
Extinct. VB.Net is not VB

>Java
Also see : neutered C++

>C#
It looks like C, but doesn't taste anything like it.

C and C++
> know "all about" C++ is not to be taken seriously.) "Shoot
> yourself in the foot" was practically invented for C, while in
> C++, it's "blow your head off" instead. See also "Nasal Demons".
>
Open field warfare. If you know what you're doing, you can do it and
the compiler won't tell you otherwise. You will avoid casualties if
you pay attention. If you don't, you'll definitely limp.

>DHTML
>

>If you're in school, look around for people who can help you. What they
>can help with may influence your choice of language. If they turn out
>to all be Borland Delphi users, go with Delphi.
>
Heh, who'd have guessed we were going this way.. :-)

I think it's time to revisit this old thing :

VB Chicken: USHighways!(aChicken)

C Chicken: It crosses the road without looking both ways.

C++ Chicken: The chicken wouldn't have to cross the road,
you'd simply refer to him on the other side.

OOP Chicken: It doesn't need to cross the road,
it just sends a message.

Delphi Chicken: The chicken is dragged across the road and
dropped on the other side.

Java Chicken: If your road needs to be crossed by a chicken, the
server will download one to the other side.
(Of course those are chicklets)

Web Chicken: Jumps out onto the road, turns right, and just
keeps on running.

------------------------------
****** And who can forget these oldies :

Assembler Chicken: First it builds the road....

COBOL Chicken: 0001-CHICKEN-CROSSING.
IF NO-MORE-VEHICLES
THEN PERFORM 0010-CROSS-THE-ROAD
VARYING STEPS FROM 1 BY 1 UNTIL
ON-THE-OTHER-SIDE
ELSE
GO TO 0001-CHICKEN-CROSSINGC

Cray Chicken: Crosses faster than any other chicken, but if
you don't dip it in liquid nitrogen first,
it arrives on the other side fully cooked.

G3 300 mH Chicken: It crosses twice as fast as any Pentium
chicken.

Gopher Chicken: Tried to run, but got flattened by the
Web chicken.

Intel Pentium Chicken: The chicken crossed 4.9999978 times.

Iomega Chicken: The chicken should have backed up before crossing.

Lotus Chicken: Don't you *dare* try to cross the road the same
way we do!

Mac Chicken: No reasonable chicken owner would want a chicken
to cross the road, so there's not way to tell it to.

Microsoft Chicken (TM): It's already on both side of the road. And
it just bought the road.

Newton Chicken: Can't cluck, can't fly, and can't lay eggs,
but you can carry it across the road in your
pocket.

NT Chicken: Will cross the road in June. No August.
September for sure.

OS/2 Chicken: It crossed the road in style years ago,
but was so quiet that nobody noticed.

OS/8 Chicken HFS+ Chicken: It had much more free space to cross.

Quantum Logic Chicken: The chicken is distrubuted probabalistically
on all sides of the road until you observe
it on the side of your choice.

Windows 95 Chicken: You see different colored feathers while
it crosses, But cook it and it still tastes
like chicken.

Windows 98 Chicken: It should have expected to cause a crash
while crossing.

--

Regards, Frank

From:	Mark Reed
Subject:	Re: beginner needs advice on Visual Studio
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:39:03 -0600

well this help me decide! hehehe

seriously... as a newbie to programming... out of all the options in
visual studio, which one is considered the starting point?

also - you mention VB and VB.net are not the same? Im really confused
now... wasnt VB6 replaced by VB.net?

There has to be a logical path of progression for learning this...

Frank Adam wrote in
news:sdc5v0hcm9poogd1stdoo5gqd10hkjpnv7@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:02:16 -0500, Tony Nelson
> wrote:
>
>>Visual Basic
> Extinct. VB.Net is not VB
>
>>Java
> Also see : neutered C++
>
>>C#
> It looks like C, but doesn't taste anything like it.
>
> C and C++
>> know "all about" C++ is not to be taken seriously.) "Shoot
>> yourself in the foot" was practically invented for C, while in
>> C++, it's "blow your head off" instead. See also "Nasal Demons".
>>
> Open field warfare. If you know what you're doing, you can do it and
> the compiler won't tell you otherwise. You will avoid casualties if
> you pay attention. If you don't, you'll definitely limp.
>
>>DHTML
>>
>
>
>>If you're in school, look around for people who can help you. What
they
>>can help with may influence your choice of language. If they turn out
>>to all be Borland Delphi users, go with Delphi.
>>
> Heh, who'd have guessed we were going this way.. :-)
>
>
> I think it's time to revisit this old thing :
>
> VB Chicken: USHighways!(aChicken)
>
> C Chicken: It crosses the road without looking both ways.
>
> C++ Chicken: The chicken wouldn't have to cross the road,
> you'd simply refer to him on the other side.
>
> OOP Chicken: It doesn't need to cross the road,
> it just sends a message.
>
> Delphi Chicken: The chicken is dragged across the road and
> dropped on the other side.
>
> Java Chicken: If your road needs to be crossed by a chicken, the
> server will download one to the other side.
> (Of course those are chicklets)
>
> Web Chicken: Jumps out onto the road, turns right, and just
> keeps on running.
>
> ------------------------------
> ****** And who can forget these oldies :
>
> Assembler Chicken: First it builds the road....
>
> COBOL Chicken: 0001-CHICKEN-CROSSING.
> IF NO-MORE-VEHICLES
> THEN PERFORM 0010-CROSS-THE-ROAD
> VARYING STEPS FROM 1 BY 1 UNTIL
> ON-THE-OTHER-SIDE
> ELSE
> GO TO 0001-CHICKEN-CROSSINGC
>
> Cray Chicken: Crosses faster than any other chicken, but if
> you don't dip it in liquid nitrogen first,
> it arrives on the other side fully cooked.
>
> G3 300 mH Chicken: It crosses twice as fast as any Pentium
> chicken.
>
> Gopher Chicken: Tried to run, but got flattened by the
> Web chicken.
>
> Intel Pentium Chicken: The chicken crossed 4.9999978 times.
>
> Iomega Chicken: The chicken should have backed up before crossing.
>
> Lotus Chicken: Don't you *dare* try to cross the road the same
> way we do!
>
> Mac Chicken: No reasonable chicken owner would want a chicken
> to cross the road, so there's not way to tell it to.
>
> Microsoft Chicken (TM): It's already on both side of the road. And
> it just bought the road.
>
> Newton Chicken: Can't cluck, can't fly, and can't lay eggs,
> but you can carry it across the road in your
> pocket.
>
> NT Chicken: Will cross the road in June. No August.
> September for sure.
>
> OS/2 Chicken: It crossed the road in style years ago,
> but was so quiet that nobody noticed.
>
> OS/8 Chicken HFS+ Chicken: It had much more free space to cross.
>
> Quantum Logic Chicken: The chicken is distrubuted probabalistically
> on all sides of the road until you observe
> it on the side of your choice.
>
> Windows 95 Chicken: You see different colored feathers while
> it crosses, But cook it and it still tastes
> like chicken.
>
> Windows 98 Chicken: It should have expected to cause a crash
> while crossing.
>

From:	Scott McPhillips [MVP]
Subject:	Re: beginner needs advice on Visual Studio
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:14:14 -0500

Mark Reed wrote:
> well this help me decide! hehehe
>
> seriously... as a newbie to programming... out of all the options in
> visual studio, which one is considered the starting point?
>
> also - you mention VB and VB.net are not the same? Im really confused
> now... wasnt VB6 replaced by VB.net?
>
> There has to be a logical path of progression for learning this...

No, there doesn't have to be a logical path of progression. You can use
any of the languages.

The situation you face is a lot like learning how to drive. Your
success does not depend much on the kind of car you learn with! The
second car you drive will be a LOT easier to learn than the first :)

Ford and Chevy: VB and C#
Mack Truck: C++

--
Scott McPhillips [VC++ MVP]

From:	Frank Adam
Subject:	Re: beginner needs advice on Visual Studio
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:41:00 +1100

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:39:03 -0600, Mark Reed
wrote:

>well this help me decide! hehehe
>
Oh, the helping bit. Sorry. :)

>seriously... as a newbie to programming... out of all the options in
>visual studio, which one is considered the starting point?
>
I don't think it matters much.

>also - you mention VB and VB.net are not the same? Im really confused
>now... wasnt VB6 replaced by VB.net?
>
"Replaced", precisely.
The name VB was preserved for only one reason, that is to pull the VB
classic-ers into it. Most will have a huge surprise if they think that
VB.Net is anything like VB. VB classic was probably one of the easiest
languages to learn and it was a very powerful one with an easy and
intuitive set of keywords, running on top of the very good VC6
compiler.. This provided tight, fast and neat applications, quite
quickly. RAD at it's best i'd say. It had of course a few flaws, brain
fades and drawbacks, which required either hoop jumping or some hacks
to overcome, but overall it was/is a great tool for good solid small
to medium sized applications, or when combined with a lower level
language such as C/C++, a great front end..

>There has to be a logical path of progression for learning this...
>
Not really. Pick a language and go with it, providing you see yourself
doing only Windows code in the future. In the old VS, say version 6,
i'd have said go with VB, where you'd get the idea of programming and
in particular gettign used to Windows programming, messaging and event
handling, all while being able to do things quickly so the learning
curve would not seem too boring or prolonged, then progress on to C or
C++.
If you think you'll head off in the direction of Unix, Linux or other
systems, perhaps starting with C or C++ is the better option.

While you're at deciding, you should take a look at Delphi as well. I
personally do not like it's syntax, but it is damn good at what it
does. They used to have personal versions available. All you had to do
was to sign up to Borland, download the 100+ Megs of the package and
get your key. IIRC, it wasn't even time limited, but you were not
allowed to release commercial apps with it.
Not sure if they still do that, but check out the Borland site.
www.borland.com.

--

Regards, Frank

From:	CBFalconer
Subject:	Re: beginner needs advice on Visual Studio
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:38:05 GMT

Mark Reed wrote:
>
.... snip ...
>
> also - you mention VB and VB.net are not the same? Im really
> confused now... wasnt VB6 replaced by VB.net?
>
> There has to be a logical path of progression for learning this...

VB has and never has had any standard, other than Bills Whims. You
should limit your language suggestion to something that has an
internationally recognized ISO standard. For you, that effectively
limits things to C, C++, Ada, Pascal. Pascal implementations are
especially likely to be non-conforming. Ada is probably the most
capable. C++ is probably the most popular today. C can do almost
anything, but is extremely dangerous.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson

From:	Alex Blekhman
Subject:	Re: beginner needs advice on Visual Studio
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:46:43 +0200

Mark Reed wrote:
> Not knowing anything about programming, but wanting to learn, which
> language that is part of VS would be best to start with?

Many readers expressed their opinions, so I'll add my humble input,
too.

If I understand correctly from your prevoius posts, you have hardware
background. So, it seems logical for you to pick up "C Language" by
Kernighan & Richie as first book. It will provide you with good grasp
of what programming is and how to command this silicon beast. In
parallel, you can start reading book about high-level language (Java
or .NET family of langs). It will give you a feeling where industry
stands today.

To program for Windows platform successfully, you'll need to read
"Programming Windows" 5th edition by Charles Petzold. It's considered
as Windows platform primer. The book teaches how to write Win32
programs using only Win32 API functions. Consequently, it uses C
language as common denominator, since Win32 API is intended for C.
Everything else is built on top of API.

Also, you can try C++, too. It's still one of the most popular
development tools today, though [alas] it's on steady decline now. C++
is wonderful language; it's powerfull, flexible with literally
limitless facilities and areas of application.However, it has one
serious drawback: it's hard to learn. Hence projects in C++ require
experienced smart developers and given the language's strenght
underqualified personnel easily wrecks havoc. All this makes C++
language relatively expensive. That's why many companies now tend to
give up C++ development in favor of less demanding tools.

It's common nowadays to see in R&D departments small kernel of tough
experienced developers that develop company's framework, and army of
easily replaceable performers that just follow rules. That's why
you'll see probably more open vacancies for .NET/Java developers than
for API/C++ developers. However, average salary of .NET developer can
be as twice as less than average salary of C++ developer.

As a choice for .NET development I'd recommend C# since that language
was designed for it while other languages were adapted to .NET
framework.

HTH
Alex