Had first experience with Framemaker recently on a consulting job.
Actually, it was PDF created by Framemaker. Job came thru broker so
don't know all the details. All the placed photos were RGB in the PDF.
Second hand, we were told the photos were CMYK when originally placed
in Framemaker, but got converted to RGB when a PDF was created from the
file(300 dpi, RGB, jpegs according to Pitstop).

Don't know if the person wrote a postscript and distilled it or if
they wrote the PDF directly from Framemaker (assuming that is
possible). Given the PDFs were 8.5 x 11's and were supposed to bleed,
but no provision was made for it, we can probably assume the worst
about the all aspects of the customer's attempt at providing a
press-ready PDF.

Before we ever got involved, my customer, the printer, offered to
convert the photos to CMYK in Pitstop (probably not a good idea in hind
sight). They went through the entire document and selected each RGB
photo and changed its designation to CMYK using one of the Pitstop
options. They then ripped the file and the ripped photos all had the
look of a really bad RGB to CMYK conversion (washed out, little black,
etc.).

If you compare the RGB PDF to the converted CMYK PDF on screen, the
photos look washed out on the converted CMYK PDF, so it appears the
problem was created at conversion, not when ripped. The file's creator
has supposedly claimed Framemaker can only produce RGB PDF's (although
when 4 revised pages were sent, they had CMYK photos). Since we know
nothing about Framemaker, we hate to call them on that, but it sure
seems unlikely. My guess is they had their Job Options mistakenly set
to create RGB compatible output.

I'm not writing this to nail anybody, because everything is still
cordial and I believe the printer is going to work thru the problem
without having to turn it into a pissing match. I just want to know if
Framemaker can write a good press ready CMYK PDF or not. Also, why did
Pitstop do such a crappy job of CMYK conversion. I only found one
reference to conversion in the Pitstop preferences and it was set to
Adobe CMM (or something like that, I don't have it in front of me).
Although I own Pitstop, I confess to knowing little about it.
Thanks for any assistance.

From:	t2_lurking
Subject:	Re: Framemaker and PDFs
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:33:37 -0600

I can shed a little light. The PC Framemaker print interface uses the MS GDI
which is RGB. The best practice for this, IMHO, is to have the originator
make a .ps (postscript) file and distill with Distiller itself. Saving their
graphic files as .eps 4/C should fix the RGB problem as well. Also it's
tough but not impossible to add bleed in Framemaker, you can add it
mathematically but you can't see it. The originator can make a PDF with
bleed and no crops by specing a larger page size in their "Properties" box.

HTH
--

gingersnap
geabbottATcomcastDOTNET
============================
Well, i dreamed i saw the silver
Space ships flying
In the yellow haze of the sun
-- Neil Young --
====================

wrote in message
news:1106319189.695571.74560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Had first experience with Framemaker recently on a consulting job.
> Actually, it was PDF created by Framemaker. Job came thru broker so
> don't know all the details. All the placed photos were RGB in the PDF.
> Second hand, we were told the photos were CMYK when originally placed
> in Framemaker, but got converted to RGB when a PDF was created from the
> file(300 dpi, RGB, jpegs according to Pitstop).
>
> Don't know if the person wrote a postscript and distilled it or if
> they wrote the PDF directly from Framemaker (assuming that is
> possible). Given the PDFs were 8.5 x 11's and were supposed to bleed,
> but no provision was made for it, we can probably assume the worst
> about the all aspects of the customer's attempt at providing a
> press-ready PDF.
>
> Before we ever got involved, my customer, the printer, offered to
> convert the photos to CMYK in Pitstop (probably not a good idea in hind
> sight). They went through the entire document and selected each RGB
> photo and changed its designation to CMYK using one of the Pitstop
> options. They then ripped the file and the ripped photos all had the
> look of a really bad RGB to CMYK conversion (washed out, little black,
> etc.).
>
> If you compare the RGB PDF to the converted CMYK PDF on screen, the
> photos look washed out on the converted CMYK PDF, so it appears the
> problem was created at conversion, not when ripped. The file's creator
> has supposedly claimed Framemaker can only produce RGB PDF's (although
> when 4 revised pages were sent, they had CMYK photos). Since we know
> nothing about Framemaker, we hate to call them on that, but it sure
> seems unlikely. My guess is they had their Job Options mistakenly set
> to create RGB compatible output.
>
> I'm not writing this to nail anybody, because everything is still
> cordial and I believe the printer is going to work thru the problem
> without having to turn it into a pissing match. I just want to know if
> Framemaker can write a good press ready CMYK PDF or not. Also, why did
> Pitstop do such a crappy job of CMYK conversion. I only found one
> reference to conversion in the Pitstop preferences and it was set to
> Adobe CMM (or something like that, I don't have it in front of me).
> Although I own Pitstop, I confess to knowing little about it.
> Thanks for any assistance.
>

From:	Neil Gould
Subject:	Re: Framemaker and PDFs
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:36:53 GMT

Recently, t2_lurking posted:

> I can shed a little light. The PC Framemaker print interface uses the
> MS GDI which is RGB. The best practice for this, IMHO, is to have the
> originator make a .ps (postscript) file and distill with Distiller
> itself. Saving their graphic files as .eps 4/C should fix the RGB
> problem as well. Also it's tough but not impossible to add bleed in
> Framemaker, you can add it mathematically but you can't see it. The
> originator can make a PDF with bleed and no crops by specing a larger
> page size in their "Properties" box.
>
> HTH
>
What you've said is essentially correct; the PC version of FM uses the MS
GDI to create *both* PostScript *and* PDFs.

However, I question the "best practice" approach for a couple of reasons.
For one thing, unless the only color in the document is in the graphic
images, there will still be RGB elements defined in the output because
they will be interpreted by the MS GDI. Unless the creator was
knowledgeable and careful, even black text will be defined in RGB, which
is not a Good Thing.

As you've pointed out, bleed calculations have to be done mathematically,
but they can be managed quite precisely. Based on the OP's comments, I
suspect that the creator of the document is unaware of how this works.

IMO, the "best practice" will be to involve someone familiar with
Framemaker, especially if employing color content.

Regards,

--
Neil Gould
--------------------------------------
Terra Tu AV - www.terratu.com
Technical Graphics & Media

From:	t2_lurking
Subject:	Re: Framemaker and PDFs
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:00:36 -0600

You are correct, I was focused on the OP's concern about RGB art.

--

gingersnap
geabbottATcomcastDOTNET
============================
"It has been theorized that an infinite number of monkeys
banging on an infinite number of typewriters
would eventually reproduce the written works of Shakespeare.
Thanks to the Internet, we now know this is not true."
---- Kurt Vonnegut -----

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
news:V4bId.17746$_X7.8677@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> Recently, t2_lurking posted:
>
>> I can shed a little light. The PC Framemaker print interface uses the
>> MS GDI which is RGB. The best practice for this, IMHO, is to have the
>> originator make a .ps (postscript) file and distill with Distiller
>> itself. Saving their graphic files as .eps 4/C should fix the RGB
>> problem as well. Also it's tough but not impossible to add bleed in
>> Framemaker, you can add it mathematically but you can't see it. The
>> originator can make a PDF with bleed and no crops by specing a larger
>> page size in their "Properties" box.
>>
>> HTH
>>
> What you've said is essentially correct; the PC version of FM uses the MS
> GDI to create *both* PostScript *and* PDFs.
>
> However, I question the "best practice" approach for a couple of reasons.
> For one thing, unless the only color in the document is in the graphic
> images, there will still be RGB elements defined in the output because
> they will be interpreted by the MS GDI. Unless the creator was
> knowledgeable and careful, even black text will be defined in RGB, which
> is not a Good Thing.
>
> As you've pointed out, bleed calculations have to be done mathematically,
> but they can be managed quite precisely. Based on the OP's comments, I
> suspect that the creator of the document is unaware of how this works.
>
> IMO, the "best practice" will be to involve someone familiar with
> Framemaker, especially if employing color content.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Neil Gould
> --------------------------------------
> Terra Tu AV - www.terratu.com
> Technical Graphics & Media
>
>
>

From:	deystad at royalgraphix.com
Subject:	Re: Framemaker and PDFs
Date:	21 Jan 2005 10:52:13 -0800

Thanks to both of you for the help. I think I get it now. Does anybody
know a way to create higher quality intra-PDF RGB to CMYK conversions
using Pitstop (or a similar utility).

From:	Aandi Inston
Subject:	Re: Framemaker and PDFs
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:21:19 GMT

deystad@royalgraphix.com wrote:

>Thanks to both of you for the help. I think I get it now. Does anybody
>know a way to create higher quality intra-PDF RGB to CMYK conversions
>using Pitstop (or a similar utility).

You don't seem to have set a CMYK profile, and if you don't the
results will be random at best. Use the correct CMYK profile for your
workflow and PitStop or Quite A Box Of Tricks (from my company) should
do a reasonable job of conversion.
----------------------------------------
Aandi Inston quite@dial.pipex.com http://www.quite.com
Please support usenet! Post replies and follow-ups, don't e-mail them.

From:	Lars Pisanec
Subject:	Re: Framemaker and PDFs
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:48:15 +0100

> Thanks to both of you for the help. I think I get it now. Does
> anybody know a way to create higher quality intra-PDF RGB to
> CMYK conversions using Pitstop (or a similar utility).

Open PitSstop Preferences within Acrobat (ALT+CTRL+K).
Go to the Color Management tab and enable Color Management.
Choose a CMYK Target profile like "US Web Coated" or "Europe ISO
Coated (FOGRA)" and an RGB Source profile.

If you change a picture's color space with activated color
management, PitStop will convert the source color space to Lab
color space and then to the target color space, using the CMYK or
RGB target profiles. If the picture (or any other thing) does not
have an attached ICC-profile, PitStop will use the source profile
you specify in the preferences.
This will usually get you quite good results for pictures.

If PitStop's Color Management is disabled, PitStop will convert to
CMYK with a maximum of black UCR. I don't know the right english
term for it, but pictures look really washed out after that,
whereas text and vector elements are generally better off with that
(RGB black will be converted to 100% K and 0% CMY).

I suggest you convert all pictures with color management turned on
and after that all text with color management off.

Lars

From:	William F. Adams
Subject:	Re: Framemaker and PDFs
Date:	21 Jan 2005 20:37:38 GMT

Creo Scitex's Prinergy Refiner has a module for fixing FrameMaker's RGB output
when distilling to .pdf as well. Even works for spot colours (mostly --- never
did hear back about the chapter which wouldn't allow itself to be fixed
automatically).

William

--
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

From:	hoffmann at fho-emden.de
Subject:	Re: Framemaker and PDFs
Date:	22 Jan 2005 04:27:02 -0800

Yes, Quite a Box Of Tricks works pretty good.
Only one option is missing (in my version):
choice of a rendering intent.
Each CMYK profile has a default rendering intent.
IMO this one is applied.

Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann