Hi, thanks all for the earlier comments in my "Senior Systems Analyst --
what??" thread. I am a step further down the line to getting the job, I
have to go for a face to face interview -- which is no mean feat being athe
company have to fly me a thosand miles or so...

Anyway, it looks like i'll be working on req specs and high level design to
pass off to outsourced developers in India, checking progress and whatever
else is involved.

Having just read the recent methodology thread I'm curious if a methodology
exists that can accomodate the challenges of outsourced work, i.e. QA,
progress monitoring, costings, how to be iterative in such a scenario,
etc...

I'd like to have a better idea of the challenges before i take the
interview, so any info or pointers to websites would be great. Thanks!

From:	phlip2005 at gmail.com
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	18 Jan 2005 09:58:54 -0800

JoJo wrote:

> It's my first leap into a real systems analyst role. Do you think I
could
> be making a mistake?

Have you lead a team or been a "lead architect" before?

(I'm always the /de-facto/ lead architect, but I'm never the titular
one!!!)

> That looks really rather neat, thank you, I'll see if I can wangle
that -
> though not sure if the Inidan guys are using TDD or what the politics
are
> yet... Or even if I'll get the job...

That's the thing: Companies ready to indulge in the high risk of
Waterfall are not ready to hear about TDD. The hype is too offensive.

Your job now is to win the interview, period. Do whatever that takes,
and learn about _this_company_, not airy-fairy ideas like TDD or
continuous integration.
If you get a job offer, you will have more options.

--
Phlip

From:	JoJo
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:43:47 GMT

On 18 Jan 2005 09:58:54 -0800, phlip2005@gmail.com wrote:

> JoJo wrote:
>
>> It's my first leap into a real systems analyst role. Do you think I could
>> be making a mistake?
>
> Have you lead a team or been a "lead architect" before?

No and No. This is what I'll STILL concerned about. My CV makes it very
clear of how much experience I have in terms of years and roles and it
isn't much, I graduated in 2003!

V pna'g oryvrir gurl ner rira pbafvqrevat zr gb or gur yrnq flfgrzf
nanylfg, znlor jbexvat pybfvat jvgu bar qrcnegzragf arrqf ohg abg gur
ragver ohfvarff. V ubcr jubrire vf vaivgvat zr sbe gur vagreivrj unf ernq
zl PI, ohg jung lbh tbvat gb qb? Fbzrbar pnyyf lbh naq vaivgrf gb gel sbe n
orggre cbfvgvba guna lbh pheeragyl ubyq, lbher tbvat gb ng yrnfg gel sbe
vg, ubcvat ng yrnfg gurl xabj jung gurl'er ybbxvat sbe?

Rkphfr gur EBG13, bar arire xabjf jura Tbbtyr zvtug xvpx lbh va gur
onpxfvqr.

> (I'm always the /de-facto/ lead architect, but I'm never the titular
> one!!!)

Back-seat driver eh.

>> That looks really rather neat, thank you, I'll see if I can wangle that -
>> though not sure if the Inidan guys are using TDD or what the politics are
>> yet... Or even if I'll get the job...
>
> That's the thing: Companies ready to indulge in the high risk of
> Waterfall are not ready to hear about TDD. The hype is too offensive.
>
> Your job now is to win the interview, period. Do whatever that takes,
> and learn about _this_company_, not airy-fairy ideas like TDD or
> continuous integration. If you get a job offer, you will have more
> options.

Yes, you're right. Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.

From:	Juhan Leemet
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:38:12 -0300

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:43:47 +0000, JoJo wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2005 09:58:54 -0800, phlip2005@gmail.com wrote:
>> JoJo wrote:
>>
>>> It's my first leap into a real systems analyst role. Do you think I could
>>> be making a mistake?
>>
>> Have you lead a team or been a "lead architect" before?
>
> No and No. This is what I'll STILL concerned about. My CV makes it very
> clear of how much experience I have in terms of years and roles and it
> isn't much, I graduated in 2003!

Pin the tail on the donkey?

I think I was hired as a potential scapegoat once, for an ongoing project
which had some serious management and contractual problems. When I
smelled things going funny, I made sure to get a testimonial letter from
the client project manager praising my work on their behalf. After that it
wasn't possible for my company to pin the tail on THIS donkey. Funny about
the sour faces around the office though: damn! can't blame it all on him
and fire him? what do we do now? You would think they would be happy the
client had good things to say? I guess not, when they had other plans.

Watch yer ass!

--
Juhan Leemet
Logicognosis, Inc.

From:	Shane Petroff
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:54:17 GMT

JoJo wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2005 09:58:54 -0800, phlip2005@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>Have you lead a team or been a "lead architect" before?
>
> No and No. This is what I'll STILL concerned about. My CV makes it very
> clear of how much experience I have in terms of years and roles and it
> isn't much, I graduated in 2003!

I took a lead position when I first started out, and ended up only
staying 8 weeks (no outsourcing though). Apart from being scared off by
the organizational pathology, I got the distinct impression that they
wanted to have a fall guy around, because real success for this project
was virtually impossible. Be careful and don't be affraid to bail out.

--
Shane

From:	JoJo
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:01:09 GMT

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:54:17 GMT, Shane Petroff wrote:

> JoJo wrote:
>> On 18 Jan 2005 09:58:54 -0800, phlip2005@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>Have you lead a team or been a "lead architect" before?
>>
>> No and No. This is what I'm STILL concerned about. My CV makes it very
>> clear of how much experience I have in terms of years and roles and it
>> isn't much, I graduated in 2003!
>
> I took a lead position when I first started out, and ended up only
> staying 8 weeks (no outsourcing though). Apart from being scared off by
> the organizational pathology, I got the distinct impression that they
> wanted to have a fall guy around, because real success for this project
> was virtually impossible. Be careful and don't be affraid to bail out.

I really don't want to walk into a nightmare, basically I'll be *seriously*
rellocating, as in a different country. The line of work is also associated
with, well, lets just say; De Niro.

Anyway, I have the interview, I'm just very curious why they're interested
in *me*. Becomming PARANOID!!! :-)

From:	Shane Petroff
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 05:12:06 GMT

JoJo wrote:
>
> Anyway, I have the interview, I'm just very curious why they're interested
> in *me*. Becomming PARANOID!!! :-)

There is no need to be paranoid, just be aware that some people do have
nefarious motives for hiring. I'd probably just ask them why they've
chosen you vs. someone with more experience. Then again, I do a lot of
things that 'normal' people don't do...

--
Shane

From:	JoJo
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:50:25 GMT

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 05:12:06 GMT, Shane Petroff wrote:
> JoJo wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, I have the interview, I'm just very curious why they're interested
>> in *me*. Becomming PARANOID!!! :-)
>
> There is no need to be paranoid, just be aware that some people do have
> nefarious motives for hiring. I'd probably just ask them why they've
> chosen you vs. someone with more experience. Then again, I do a lot of
> things that 'normal' people don't do...

This damn career stuff is a pain the backside, why can't someone just give
me a job that I'll love? Blasted human beings always making stuff more
complicated than they should be...

From:	Phlip
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:02:58 GMT

JoJo wrote:

> This damn career stuff is a pain the backside, why can't someone just give
> me a job that I'll love?

Because if you try to get mine I'l kick your butt.

Any questions? ;-)

--
Phlip
http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces

From:	JoJo
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:37:54 GMT

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:02:58 GMT, Phlip wrote:
> JoJo wrote:
>
>> This damn career stuff is a pain the backside, why can't someone just give
>> me a job that I'll love?
>
> Because if you try to get mine I'l kick your butt.
>
> Any questions? ;-)

I've seen you around, your job would scare the crap out of me.

From:	William
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:54:38 -0600

"JoJo" wrote in message
news:1vbycps2qrocb$.dlg@invalid.net...
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:54:17 GMT, Shane Petroff wrote:
>
> I really don't want to walk into a nightmare, basically I'll be
*seriously*
> rellocating, as in a different country. The line of work is also
associated
> with, well, lets just say; De Niro.
>
> Anyway, I have the interview, I'm just very curious why they're interested
> in *me*. Becomming PARANOID!!! :-)

I hope you've at least googled the company - web, groups and news.

Since it's a different country, make sure you check out their
employment laws, esp. in reference to your status as a guest
worker. The devil is in the details. -Wm

From:	JoJo
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:21:49 GMT

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:54:38 -0600, William wrote:
> "JoJo" wrote in message
>>
>> Anyway, I have the interview, I'm just very curious why they're
>> interested in *me*.
>
> I hope you've at least googled the company - web, groups and news.

By sheer chance I'm sharing a house with a guy who knows two people who
went to work for them (small world isn't it?!), one's still there and says
that they are a fair employer. Can't ask for more than that really.

> Since it's a different country, make sure you check out their
> employment laws, esp. in reference to your status as a guest
> worker. The devil is in the details. -Wm

Yes, but I'm reasonably sure there are no nasty surprises on that front.

From:	David
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 03:49:03 GMT

JoJo,

Good luck at the interview. Remember this is also
your time to get to know the potential employer.
Find out as much about them and how they do business
and what they want you to handle. It is likely a
long term decision for you so find out all you can.

David

From:	JoJo
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:50:36 GMT

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 03:49:03 GMT, David wrote:

> JoJo,
>
> Good luck at the interview. Remember this is also
> your time to get to know the potential employer.
> Find out as much about them and how they do business
> and what they want you to handle. It is likely a
> long term decision for you so find out all you can.
>
> David

Hi David, good advice again, I'm going to call he guy for a pre-interview
chat I think.

From:	Phlip
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:59:19 GMT

JoJo wrote:

> Hi, thanks all for the earlier comments in my "Senior Systems Analyst --
> what??" thread. I am a step further down the line to getting the job, I
> have to go for a face to face interview -- which is no mean feat being
athe
> company have to fly me a thosand miles or so...
>
> Anyway, it looks like i'll be working on req specs and high level design
to
> pass off to outsourced developers in India, checking progress and whatever
> else is involved.

Either they fly someone to India with the _most_ experience satisfying the
customers of this product, or they live a lie.

The lie is that the overhead and delay of long-distance outsourcing will
somehow cost less than the small savings of the lower wages. Many, many
executives fire locals, hire distant people, hide the true cost of this
stupidity, and then declare rewards for themselves.

In this case, the lie is much deeper. Your company doesn't realise that
keeping design on a different team than code causes incredible risk and
friction.

You will not be able to excel at this company. But if you want to at least
make a buck, announce that your first "design" goal is build and test
servers at both sites. Every evening, India time, the workers test and
check-in their code changes. Their build server and yours pull from the same
code base. Don't let the Indians use their in-house version control system;
make them use yours.

Then, at both sites, the build server and test server build and evaluate the
day's source.

This system prevents you from indulging in false metrics from India, such as
"how much work do you think you did today?"

The requirements specs you send to India can be failing tests which they
must pass.

Use a batch test system on the test server, such as FITnesse, that lets you
add failing requirements as web pages. This process keeps you in charge of
the design.

Oh, and request features in order of business priority, so you can
demonstrate value from the new code as soon as possible.

Now start the interview by asking questions about process, to learn what
words these guys like. Then use their words to say what I said. Except the
stuff about how it won't really be cheap or efficient.

--
Phlip
http://industrialxp.org/community/bin/view/Main/TestFirstUserInterfaces

From:	JoJo
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:00:13 GMT

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:59:19 GMT, Phlip wrote:

> JoJo wrote:
>
>> Hi, thanks all for the earlier comments in my "Senior Systems Analyst --
>> what??" thread. I am a step further down the line to getting the job, I
>> have to go for a face to face interview -- which is no mean feat being
> athe
>> company have to fly me a thosand miles or so...
>>
>> Anyway, it looks like i'll be working on req specs and high level design
> to
>> pass off to outsourced developers in India, checking progress and whatever
>> else is involved.
>
> Either they fly someone to India with the _most_ experience satisfying the
> customers of this product, or they live a lie.
>
> The lie is that the overhead and delay of long-distance outsourcing will
> somehow cost less than the small savings of the lower wages. Many, many
> executives fire locals, hire distant people, hide the true cost of this
> stupidity, and then declare rewards for themselves.
>
> In this case, the lie is much deeper. Your company doesn't realise that
> keeping design on a different team than code causes incredible risk and
> friction.
>
> You will not be able to excel at this company.

It's my first leap into a real systems analyst role. Do you think I could
be making a mistake?

> But if you want to at least
> make a buck, announce that your first "design" goal is build and test
> servers at both sites. Every evening, India time, the workers test and
> check-in their code changes. Their build server and yours pull from the same
> code base. Don't let the Indians use their in-house version control system;
> make them use yours.
>
> Then, at both sites, the build server and test server build and evaluate the
> day's source.
>
> This system prevents you from indulging in false metrics from India, such as
> "how much work do you think you did today?"
>
> The requirements specs you send to India can be failing tests which they
> must pass.
>
> Use a batch test system on the test server, such as FITnesse, that lets you
> add failing requirements as web pages. This process keeps you in charge of
> the design.

That looks really rather neat, thank you, I'll see if I can wangle that -
though not sure if the Inidan guys are using TDD or what the politics are
yet... Or even if I'll get the job...

> Oh, and request features in order of business priority, so you can
> demonstrate value from the new code as soon as possible.
>
> Now start the interview by asking questions about process, to learn what
> words these guys like. Then use their words to say what I said. Except the
> stuff about how it won't really be cheap or efficient.

Heh.

From:	Andrew Peter Marlow
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:18:51 +0000

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:59:19 +0000, Phlip wrote:
>> Anyway, it looks like i'll be working on req specs and high
>> level design to pass off to outsourced developers in India,
>> checking progress and whatever else is involved.

You won't enjoy it. All though rumours you heard about the
perils of outsourcing to India are true.

> The lie is that the overhead and delay of long-distance outsourcing will
> somehow cost less than the small savings of the lower wages. Many, many
> executives fire locals, hire distant people, hide the true cost of this
> stupidity, and then declare rewards for themselves.

Indeed. Companies that get burnt don't seem to learn the lessons.
Once they've done it once and got into trouble that will not
stop them from continuing to outsource, even to the same company.

> In this case, the lie is much deeper. Your company doesn't realise that
> keeping design on a different team than code causes incredible risk and
> friction.

They have probably heard it from their own developers 'til they
are sick of hearing it. But they are seduced by possible cost savings.

> You will not be able to excel at this company.

You might. Some companies like a developer to hold the hand
of the India developers whilst every last little detail is
spelt out. You can sometimes get a lot of kudos for 'helping' them.
But I don't think you'll like it and IMO your skills are likely
to stagnate.

> But if you want to at
> least make a buck, announce that your first "design" goal is build and
> test servers at both sites. Every evening, India time, the workers test
> and check-in their code changes. Their build server and yours pull from
> the same code base.

I can't see how this can work unless you work on the same basic version.

> Don't let the Indians use their in-house version
> control system; make them use yours.

Been there, done that. The Indians just end up working on a branch.

> This system prevents you from indulging in false metrics from India,
> such as "how much work do you think you did today?"

Manager that are happy to outsource are not happy to receive
metrics that indicate it was a bad move.

> Oh, and request features in order of business priority, so you can
> demonstrate value from the new code as soon as possible.

Good idea.

>
> Now start the interview by asking questions about process, to learn what
> words these guys like.

Not so good. They can normally "talk the talk".

Good luck to the OP. He'll need it.

From:	JoJo
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:04:39 GMT

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:18:51 +0000, Andrew Peter Marlow wrote:

> Good luck to the OP. He'll need it.

Oh gawd!

From:	Juhan Leemet
Subject:	Re: How to handle outsourcing?
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:31:09 -0300

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:18:51 +0000, Andrew Peter Marlow wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:59:19 +0000, Phlip wrote:
>>> Anyway, it looks like i'll be working on req specs and high
>>> level design to pass off to outsourced developers in India,
>>> checking progress and whatever else is involved.
>
> You won't enjoy it. All though rumours you heard about the
> perils of outsourcing to India are true.

Chilling thought! OTOH, a client of mine experienced that in 1999.

[snippage]
>> This system prevents you from indulging in false metrics from India,
>> such as "how much work do you think you did today?"
>
> Manager that are happy to outsource are not happy to receive
> metrics that indicate it was a bad move.

I would recommend that you get those managers to buy into some suitable
metrics from the beginning, so they cannot evade responsibility for the
results. Else they will likely accuse you of choosing the wrong ones, or
measuring incorrectly, or any number of dishonest evasive techniques.

BTW, a buddy of mine (here in Canada) was all gung ho to outsource some
porting of a working program to some other country. Turns out they
presented him with an estimate for millions of dollars (seemed excessive?)
even though they were going to bill 1/2 or 1/3 of the local rate. So, I
suspect this might all be just a variant of the "bid (whatever) to win"
strategy (that was sometimes used for government contracting?) and then
nickel-and-dime them to death after that. Every (intentional?)
misunderstanding is a "spec change" which costs (lots?) extra! etc.

My toughest question for managers intent on outsourcing: if you cannot
manage your development process in your own shop, how are you going to
manage it half way around the world? Besides, when one looks at work
breakdown for the entire development process, design/implementation is
usually something like 18% IIRC. Bigger problems are specs and testing.
These usually require understanding (embedding in?) the target environment.

OTOH, cynics might point out that the eventual target markets will be
developing economies anyway, since after they get all the jobs, they will
have all the money, and will be the only ones left to buy? Yikes?!?

--
Juhan Leemet
Logicognosis, Inc.