Perhaps a very stupid question about the juridical details of the trial
of Socrates.

Our sculptor/philosopher was charged with "corrupting the youth" and the
result shows that this was indeed regarded as a criminal act. Does this
mean that the ancient Athenians really had a law against people who gave
bad ideas to young people? Or was this crime "invented" in front of the
jury?

Jona

--
Jona Lendering
www.livius.org

From:	Bobby D. Bryant
Subject:	Re: "Corrupting the youth"
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:06:55 +0000 (UTC)

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Jona wrote:

> Perhaps a very stupid question about the juridical details of the trial
> of Socrates.
>
> Our sculptor/philosopher was charged with "corrupting the youth" and the
> result shows that this was indeed regarded as a criminal act. Does this
> mean that the ancient Athenians really had a law against people who gave
> bad ideas to young people? Or was this crime "invented" in front of the
> jury?

As I understand it, the assembly could vote on any damn thing they wanted.
E.g., the orders for genocide against one of their "allies" that decided
it didn't want to play anymore.

--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

From:	Rich Alderson
Subject:	Hey, Bobby! [was Re: "Corrupting the youth"]
Date:	22 Jan 2005 03:30:24 -0500

bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu (Bobby D. Bryant) writes:

> Bobby Bryant
> Austin, Texas

Long, LONG time, friend! Did you ever finish your degree? I see you're still
in Austin...

--
Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon |
news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against |
"You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and |
--Death, of the Endless | / \ postings |

From:	Allan Adler
Subject:	Re: "Corrupting the youth"
Date:	22 Jan 2005 13:19:53 -0500

Jona writes:

> Our sculptor/philosopher was charged with "corrupting the youth" and the
> result shows that this was indeed regarded as a criminal act. Does this
> mean that the ancient Athenians really had a law against people who gave
> bad ideas to young people? Or was this crime "invented" in front of the
> jury?

Jona is asking whether there was a specific law against "corrupting the
youth". Quite independently of whether there was an explicit law against
it, I'm not sure what in common parlance would have been meant by
corrupting the youth. The youth that Soc was hanging out with don't
seem to have been all that young and a lot of behavior that until recently
was forbidden in our own society was perfectly acceptable. Socrates was
charged with atheism, but that was a separate charge. What's left?
--
Ignorantly,
Allan Adler
* Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and
* comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston.

From:	Thomas Bushnell, BSG
Subject:	Re: "Corrupting the youth"
Date:	22 Jan 2005 17:55:23 -0800

Allan Adler writes:

> Jona is asking whether there was a specific law against "corrupting the
> youth". Quite independently of whether there was an explicit law against
> it, I'm not sure what in common parlance would have been meant by
> corrupting the youth. The youth that Soc was hanging out with don't
> seem to have been all that young and a lot of behavior that until recently
> was forbidden in our own society was perfectly acceptable. Socrates was
> charged with atheism, but that was a separate charge. What's left?

Perhaps they blamed him for making Alcibiades into a hothead, and
since Alcibiades could certainly be called corrupt...

From:	Allan Adler
Subject:	Re: "Corrupting the youth"
Date:	22 Jan 2005 23:50:27 -0500

tb+usenet@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) writes:

> Perhaps they blamed him for making Alcibiades into a hothead, and
> since Alcibiades could certainly be called corrupt...

Thanks for introducing at least one other historical character into the
discussion. Now that I think about it, I vaguely recall watching something
about ancient Greek history on public TV and I think they strongly suggested
that there were political reasons behind the charges brought against Soc.
I don't know the history myself, so I'll probably get this wrong, but I
think Socrates was one of the few people against the invasion of Sicily.
After the disastrous end of that adventure, or maybe after the Peloponnesian
war itself, the Athenians turned on themselves and there were purges, including
Socrates. I just looked at the Anchor Atlas of World History, which says
says Athens was defeated in 404, Soc killed in 399, and that he had pleaded
unsuccessfully for the lives of the leaders of the victorious fleet after
the battle of Arginusae, who were being court martialed for not having
rescued shipwrecked crews. According to my 1947 edition of Grolier's
Encyclopedia, that I fished out of a dumpster, Soc was charged with corrupting
the youth and for introducing new divinities in place of those recognized by
the state, but that the real reasons were probably political. The democracy
had been restored and people blamed Soc for the "antidemocratic careers of
such men as Alcibiades and Critias, who had been members of his circle."
--
Ignorantly,
Allan Adler
* Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and
* comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston.

From:	Martin Edwards
Subject:	Re: "Corrupting the youth"
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:59:35 +0000 (UTC)

Allan Adler wrote:

> rescued shipwrecked crews. According to my 1947 edition of Grolier's
> Encyclopedia, that I fished out of a dumpster, Soc was charged with corrupting
> the youth and for introducing new divinities in place of those recognized by
> the state, but that the real reasons were probably political. The democracy
> had been restored and people blamed Soc for the "antidemocratic careers of
> such men as Alcibiades and Critias, who had been members of his circle."

He was executed by the restored democracy and was believed to be a
supporter of the recently overthrown pro-Spartan oligarchy. There was
some doubt about this and the first jury was nearly hung. He could have
got out of it by apologizing but deliberetely treated the whole thing as
a joke. He was seventy, very old by the standards of the time.
Possibly an early example of suicide by execution.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955

From:	Ed Cryer
Subject:	Re: "Corrupting the youth"
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:39:34 -0000

"Allan Adler" wrote in message
news:y93fz0t72d2.fsf@nestle.csail.mit.edu...
> Jona writes:
>
> > Our sculptor/philosopher was charged with "corrupting the youth" and the
> > result shows that this was indeed regarded as a criminal act. Does this
> > mean that the ancient Athenians really had a law against people who gave
> > bad ideas to young people? Or was this crime "invented" in front of the
> > jury?
>
> Jona is asking whether there was a specific law against "corrupting the
> youth". Quite independently of whether there was an explicit law against
> it, I'm not sure what in common parlance would have been meant by
> corrupting the youth. The youth that Soc was hanging out with don't
> seem to have been all that young and a lot of behavior that until recently
> was forbidden in our own society was perfectly acceptable. Socrates was
> charged with atheism, but that was a separate charge. What's left?
> --
> Ignorantly,
> Allan Adler
> * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions
and
> * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near
Boston.

Homouality? I don't think there was any specific Athenian law against
this. Nor the tacit law of prejudice that condemned, say, Oscar Wilde or
Alan Turing. There wasn't that distinction in old Athens of straight and
that we have.

No, the charges levied against Socrates were far more social than
moralistic. To "corrupt the youth" probably resonated as "Spartanisation" to
most Athenians of the time.

Ed

From:	Doodle Bob
Subject:	Re: "Corrupting the youth"
Date:	22 Jan 2005 13:15:27 -0800

An ancient Athenian law against homouality would be much like an
anti-gambling ordinance in Las Vegas.

-DB

From:	Bobby D. Bryant
Subject:	Re: Hey, Bobby! [was Re: "Corrupting the youth"]
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:29:28 +0000 (UTC)

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005, Rich Alderson wrote:

> bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu (Bobby D. Bryant) writes:
>
>> Bobby Bryant
>> Austin, Texas
>
> Long, LONG time, friend! Did you ever finish your degree?

Uh... "almost". I had a change of major that set me way back, but
I'm a candidate now, and probably have a year or a year and a half
to go.

What are you up to these days?

--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas