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 | | From: | Brian Goodheim | | Subject: | Help configuring Opera to access IE site | | Date: | Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:36:34 -0700 |
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 | A couple of weeks ago I started this thread asking for help configuring
Opera to access the IE only site www.iresis.com. Thanks to all who replied
and here is the feedback from Ires tech support:
"You called about using the Firefox (and Opera) browsers with IRESis. At
this time, IRESis is only compatible with IE since we have chosen to spend
our Research & Development money on new functionality that benefits all of
our users, rather than working on making the system compatible with other
Operating Systems and browsers. At some point in the future, we would like
to make IRESis compatible with those other platforms, but right now we are
focusing on additional system features. There is always a positive and
negative side to difficult decisions such as this one, but we believe it is
the right choice for our subscribers at this point in time."
At present, I cannot even log on to the IE site with Opera or Firefox. I
can log on OK with various versions of IE, but I get interminable popups,
and eventually IE stops reponding and I have to reboot. Having used Opera
for the past few weeks, I would really like to get it working with
Iresis.com. Here is a quick summary of this thread:
At logon, www.iresis.com performs various browser compatibility tests. The
tests with Opera 7.54 and 8.0 beta are as follows:
Test results with Opera 7.54u1:
browserIsIE: 0
browserIsOnWindows: 1
browserVersion: n/a
browserStr: Opera/7.54u1 (Windows 98; U) [en]
browserVersOk: false
ieDomOk: true
w3cDomOk: true
innerHtmlOk: true
dom2GetDocOk: false
msxmlGetDocOk: false
xmlhttpGetDocOk: false
vmlOk: false
jsver: 1.3js
VersionOk: true
popupOk: true
screenRes: 1024x768@32
screenResOk: true
cookiesOk: true
browserOk: false
passedAllTests: false
Test results with Opera 8 beta:
browserIsIE: 1
browserIsOnWindows: 1
browserVersion: 6
browserStr: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; en) Opera 8.00
browserVersOk: true
ieDomOk: true
w3cDomOk: true
innerHtmlOk: true
dom2GetDocOk: false
msxmlGetDocOk: false
xmlhttpGetDocOk: false
vmlOk: false
jsver: 1.3
jsVersionOk: true
popupOk: true
screenRes: 1024x768@32
screenResOk: true
cookiesOk: true
browserOk: false
passedAllTests: false
In both cases, Opera fails the following tests:
Opera fails the vmlOk: false
xmlhttpGetDocOk: false
msxmlGetDocOk: false
dom2GetDocOk: false
Thinking that because Opera 8 implements xmlhttp, Paul McGarry,
http://paulmcgarry.com/, suggested trying Opera 8 beta which returned the
test results listed above.
Andrew Gregory, http://www.scss.com.au/family/andrew/ suggested
implementation of the "Open in IE" button,
http://nontroppo.org/wiki/CustomButtons/#webdev which gets me back to IE
locking up my system, but also noted that the following Iresis testing code
(see ) should fail in Opera due to
case-sensitive function names:
function testXMLHTMLGetDoc(jsu) {
var url = "test.xml";
var method = "POST";
assert(window.ActiveXObject);
var xmlhttp = new ActiveXObject ("Microsoft.XMLHTTP");
xmlhttp.Open(method, url, false);
xmlhttp.Send();
/*var data =
xmlhttp.responseXML.getElementsByTagName("data")[0].firstChild.data;
assert(data == "XML Data");*/
}
"Lee Harvey" also noted that the reason the
XMLHTTP test fails in Opera is because the webmaster uses the wrong case for
the methods[1]. In other words, he's calling Open() and Send(), rather than
open() and send(). He suggested I contact the webmaster @ iresis.com to
correct this problem, but also suspected there may be more problems with
this site as this syntax will only work in MSIE because it supports VBScript
which is a non-case-sensitive scripting language.
After bringing up this issue with the webmaster, it is clear that they will
not be revising their code for Opera compatibility. And despite the Opera
browser's many features and clear superiority to IE, Opera users are not in
a position to demand such changes from webmasters with more important
priorities.
Therefore, it appears to be incumbent upon the Opera developers to provide
transparent compatibility with IE if any significant market acceptance of
Opera is to be achieved. With reference to the topic of the current thread,
if IE allows for case insensitive scripting, Opera had better provide for it
as well. You certainly can't expect Opera to win any market share if it can
only be used at websites which follow case-sensitive scripting rules.
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| | From: | Paul McGarry | | Subject: | Re: Help configuring Opera to access IE site | | Date: | Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:35:41 +1100 |
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| On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:36:34 -0700, Brian Goodheim
wrote:
> Therefore, it appears to be incumbent upon the Opera developers to
> provide
> transparent compatibility with IE if any significant market acceptance of
> Opera is to be achieved.
That statement just doesn't hold. The vast majority of the "market" does
work with Opera.
Sites that don't work with it are in a minority and a small one.
You may have such a site that is critical for you and is without competing
alternatives but that is far from the common experience.
> With reference to the topic of the current thread,
> if IE allows for case insensitive scripting, Opera had better provide
> for it
> as well. You certainly can't expect Opera to win any market share if it
> can
> only be used at websites which follow case-sensitive scripting rules.
Opera is best spending it's resource on areas that benefit the most people.
Chasing after "problems" on the tiny minority of sites that have made a
strong design choice to target IE only will not be good bang for their
buck.
--
Paul McGarry
http://paulmcgarry.com/
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| | From: | Richard Grevers | | Subject: | Re: Help configuring Opera to access IE site | | Date: | Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:56:23 +1300 |
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| On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:36:34 -0700, Brian Goodheim
wrote:
> A couple of weeks ago I started this thread asking for help configuring
> Opera to access the IE only site www.iresis.com. Thanks to all who
> replied
> and here is the feedback from Ires tech support:
>
> "You called about using the Firefox (and Opera) browsers with IRESis. At
> this time, IRESis is only compatible with IE since we have chosen to
> spend
> our Research & Development money on new functionality that benefits all
> of our users,.."
What a statement! They most obviously are NOT benefitting all their users
by forcing them to use one particular technology which deviates
significantly from the mainstream, has declining market share, major
security issues and is getting increasingly behind the times.
> "... rather than working on making the system compatible with other
> Operating Systems and browsers.
On the day they sit down and write the first line of code, their system IS
compatible with all operating systems and browsers. You then make a series
of decisions, whether conscious or unwitting, to reduce that compatibility.
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
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| | From: | Andrew Gregory | | Subject: | Re: Help configuring Opera to access IE site | | Date: | Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:12:19 +0800 |
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| On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:36:34 -0700, Brian Goodheim
wrote:
> Therefore, it appears to be incumbent upon the Opera developers to
> providetransparent compatibility with IE if any significant market
> acceptance ofOpera is to be achieved.
Unfortunately, this quite simply can't be done. Opera would need to
replicate IE, bugs and all. I've seen sites that *rely* on IE bugs! No
thank you!
> With reference to the topic of the current thread, if IE allows forcase
> insensitive scripting, Opera had better provide for itas well. You
> certainly can't expect Opera to win any market share if it can only be
> used at websites which follow case-sensitive scripting rules.
I've been doing web work for nearly ten years. I can't remember another
instance where case-sensitivity was an issue. This is because it is
*supposed* to be case-sensitive. Such code will fail in every other
browser other than IE (Mozilla, Firefox, Camino, Konqueror, Safari, and
for all I know IE/Mac too). I'd say the probability of any browser making
their JS case-insensitive is as close to zero as makes no difference.
Even if Opera were to make things case-insensitive, you still wouldn't be
able to use the iresis site. They're just checking for far too much
IE-only stuff. Stuff that no other browser is going to implement because
the cost-benefit ratio just isn't there.
The facts are that iresis have gone to a lot of trouble making their site
as IE-dependent as possible. They didn't have to, no one forced them to.
Now they, and you, have to deal with it. You have two choices:
1. Use IE for the iresis site.
2. Go elsewhere for whatever services iresis provide. I don't know if this
is possible/practical.
In closing, there are some cases where Opera having improved IE
compatibility has merit. I'm sorry, but this is not one of those cases.
HTH,
--
Andrew Gregory
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| | From: | Brian Goodheim | | Subject: | Re: Help configuring Opera to access IE site | | Date: | Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:37:12 -0700 |
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| Thanks again for the feedback. My motivation in exploring Opera and Firefox
as browser alternatives is the result of IE6 incessantly hanging up on my
fully udated Windows98 platform. Although frustrating in terms of its
outcome with regard to accessing Iresis.com, my investigation revealed
refreshing innovation among the alternative browsers tested.
Unfortunately, the best innovation is easily trumped when monopoly rather
than competition dictates market standards. By this comment, I'm not solely
referring to Microsoft, but also to the real estate data franchise afforded
through the MLS systems. As a Realtor and appraiser, I have paid tens of
thousands of dollars to access this data over the years, and would like
nothing more than to access this data in the most efficient means possible.
In my personal assessment, Opera could have provided a better mechanism for
this access, but it appears that this is technically infeasible, at least
for most users.
Although I was able to eventually log on to the Iris system, I am giving up
on using Opera with this site. The screen displays and frame presentation
designed for IE did not look right in Opera, and I received errors such as
"need RG_Package attribute on Form oClientArea" when I tried to use the
query forms to access MLS data.
My suggestion that the Opera developers provide transparent compatibility
with IE was made without in-depth knowledge of the technical implications,
but rather in the hope that a good software product can achieve the market
penetration it deserves.
Thanks again for everyone's help.
-Brian
"Brian Goodheim" wrote in message
news:VeadnVzkmMlGTHjcRVn-ow@comcast.com...
> A couple of weeks ago I started this thread asking for help configuring
> Opera to access the IE only site www.iresis.com. Thanks to all who
replied
> and here is the feedback from Ires tech support:
>
> "You called about using the Firefox (and Opera) browsers with IRESis. At
> this time, IRESis is only compatible with IE since we have chosen to spend
> our Research & Development money on new functionality that benefits all of
> our users, rather than working on making the system compatible with other
> Operating Systems and browsers. At some point in the future, we would
like
> to make IRESis compatible with those other platforms, but right now we are
> focusing on additional system features. There is always a positive and
> negative side to difficult decisions such as this one, but we believe it
is
> the right choice for our subscribers at this point in time."
>
> At present, I cannot even log on to the IE site with Opera or Firefox. I
> can log on OK with various versions of IE, but I get interminable popups,
> and eventually IE stops reponding and I have to reboot. Having used Opera
> for the past few weeks, I would really like to get it working with
> Iresis.com. Here is a quick summary of this thread:
>
> At logon, www.iresis.com performs various browser compatibility tests.
The
> tests with Opera 7.54 and 8.0 beta are as follows:
>
> Test results with Opera 7.54u1:
> browserIsIE: 0
> browserIsOnWindows: 1
> browserVersion: n/a
> browserStr: Opera/7.54u1 (Windows 98; U) [en]
> browserVersOk: false
> ieDomOk: true
> w3cDomOk: true
> innerHtmlOk: true
> dom2GetDocOk: false
> msxmlGetDocOk: false
> xmlhttpGetDocOk: false
> vmlOk: false
> jsver: 1.3js
> VersionOk: true
> popupOk: true
> screenRes: 1024x768@32
> screenResOk: true
> cookiesOk: true
> browserOk: false
> passedAllTests: false
>
> Test results with Opera 8 beta:
> browserIsIE: 1
> browserIsOnWindows: 1
> browserVersion: 6
> browserStr: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; en) Opera 8.00
> browserVersOk: true
> ieDomOk: true
> w3cDomOk: true
> innerHtmlOk: true
> dom2GetDocOk: false
> msxmlGetDocOk: false
> xmlhttpGetDocOk: false
> vmlOk: false
> jsver: 1.3
> jsVersionOk: true
> popupOk: true
> screenRes: 1024x768@32
> screenResOk: true
> cookiesOk: true
> browserOk: false
> passedAllTests: false
>
> In both cases, Opera fails the following tests:
>
> Opera fails the vmlOk: false
> xmlhttpGetDocOk: false
> msxmlGetDocOk: false
> dom2GetDocOk: false
>
> Thinking that because Opera 8 implements xmlhttp, Paul McGarry,
> http://paulmcgarry.com/, suggested trying Opera 8 beta which returned the
> test results listed above.
>
> Andrew Gregory, http://www.scss.com.au/family/andrew/ suggested
> implementation of the "Open in IE" button,
> http://nontroppo.org/wiki/CustomButtons/#webdev which gets me back to IE
> locking up my system, but also noted that the following Iresis testing
code
> (see ) should fail in Opera due
to
> case-sensitive function names:
>
> function testXMLHTMLGetDoc(jsu) {
> var url = "test.xml";
> var method = "POST";
>
> assert(window.ActiveXObject);
> var xmlhttp = new ActiveXObject ("Microsoft.XMLHTTP");
> xmlhttp.Open(method, url, false);
> xmlhttp.Send();
>
> /*var data =
> xmlhttp.responseXML.getElementsByTagName("data")[0].firstChild.data;
> assert(data == "XML Data");*/
> }
>
> "Lee Harvey" also noted that the reason the
> XMLHTTP test fails in Opera is because the webmaster uses the wrong case
for
> the methods[1]. In other words, he's calling Open() and Send(), rather
than
> open() and send(). He suggested I contact the webmaster @ iresis.com to
> correct this problem, but also suspected there may be more problems with
> this site as this syntax will only work in MSIE because it supports
VBScript
> which is a non-case-sensitive scripting language.
>
> After bringing up this issue with the webmaster, it is clear that they
will
> not be revising their code for Opera compatibility. And despite the Opera
> browser's many features and clear superiority to IE, Opera users are not
in
> a position to demand such changes from webmasters with more important
> priorities.
>
> Therefore, it appears to be incumbent upon the Opera developers to provide
> transparent compatibility with IE if any significant market acceptance of
> Opera is to be achieved. With reference to the topic of the current
thread,
> if IE allows for case insensitive scripting, Opera had better provide for
it
> as well. You certainly can't expect Opera to win any market share if it
can
> only be used at websites which follow case-sensitive scripting rules.
>
>
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| | From: | Matthew Winn | | Subject: | Re: Help configuring Opera to access IE site | | Date: | Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:25:52 +0000 (UTC) |
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| On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:36:34 -0700, Brian Goodheim wrote:
> A couple of weeks ago I started this thread asking for help configuring
> Opera to access the IE only site www.iresis.com. Thanks to all who replied
> and here is the feedback from Ires tech support:
>
> "You called about using the Firefox (and Opera) browsers with IRESis. At
> this time, IRESis is only compatible with IE since we have chosen to spend
> our Research & Development money on new functionality that benefits all of
> our users, rather than working on making the system compatible with other
> Operating Systems and browsers. At some point in the future, we would like
> to make IRESis compatible with those other platforms, but right now we are
> focusing on additional system features. There is always a positive and
> negative side to difficult decisions such as this one, but we believe it is
> the right choice for our subscribers at this point in time."
Well, they certainly know nothing about computers. I wonder if they
honestly believe they can produce code for a specific browser and
subsequently make it work for other environments. Part of me thinks
that nobody could possibly be so dumb as to paint themselves into a
corner like that. Then it occurs to me that they're probably lying
and have no intention of supporting anything but IE. But in that
case they're counting on the hope that the Windows desktop PC will
always be the overwhelmingly dominant form of internet access and
that Microsoft will always support IE, and nobody could possibly be
so dumb as to paint themselves into a corner like that.
Or could they?
--
Matthew Winn
[If replying by email remove the "r" from "urk"]
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