Folks,

By now, you may have seen the news announcement around Pervasive starting a
supported version of PostgreSQL.
http://www.pervasivepostgres.com/

For those that don't know, Pervasive is an "old" database company, originally
known as Btrieve. Their main product, btrieve, is one of the most widely
distributed embedded databases in the world.

They *are* serious about contributing to the project. If anyone has any
questions, you should refer them to me; I'm in contact with the Pervasive
people.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

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From:	Mitch Pirtle
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:12:05 -0500

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:49:22 -0400 (AST), Marc G. Fournier
wrote:
>
> Its the one thing too typical of 'modern companies', the use of flash on
> their sites ... but, it attracts the Windows users, I guess :)

Aw c'mon, it's not so bad. Actually it made me smile - I thought it
was cool, and it certainly doesn't keep me from browsing their
website. Besides, that's the fastest I have seen my cats move in
several years.

-- Mitch, loving the subwoofer in his laptop right now

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From:	Marc G. Fournier
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Sat, 15 Jan 2005 01:32:09 -0400 (AST)

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005, Mitch Pirtle wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:49:22 -0400 (AST), Marc G. Fournier
> wrote:
>>
>> Its the one thing too typical of 'modern companies', the use of flash on
>> their sites ... but, it attracts the Windows users, I guess :)
>
> Aw c'mon, it's not so bad. Actually it made me smile - I thought it
> was cool, and it certainly doesn't keep me from browsing their
> website. Besides, that's the fastest I have seen my cats move in
> several years.

Since I run a non-flash browsr, can you desscribe it to me? :)

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend

From:	Kris Jurka
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:36:21 -0500 (EST)

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005, Josh Berkus wrote:

> Lance, if you're reading this, maybe you could talk the web team into
> dropping the flash intro? Flash intros are a bit, well, 90's.

Right...

http://www.agliodbs.com/index.html

Kris Jurka

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From:	Josh Berkus
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:46:19 -0800

Kris,

> Right...
>
> http://www.agliodbs.com/index.html

Yep. Case in point ... that site hasn't been updated since 1999.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

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TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend

From:	Peter Eisentraut
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:33:18 +0100

Josh Berkus wrote:
> By now, you may have seen the news announcement around Pervasive
> starting a supported version of PostgreSQL.
> http://www.pervasivepostgres.com/

I think they should start by deciding on a spelling of their (and our)
product.

And then they should stop marking it as a trademark.

--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/

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TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend

From:	Bruce Momjian
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:16:36 -0500 (EST)

Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Josh Berkus wrote:
> > By now, you may have seen the news announcement around Pervasive
> > starting a supported version of PostgreSQL.
> > http://www.pervasivepostgres.com/
>
> I think they should start by deciding on a spelling of their (and our)
> product.
>
> And then they should stop marking it as a trademark.

I assume "Pervasive Postgres" is their trademark, not just "Postgres".
That seems OK to me, no?

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

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From:	Simon Riggs
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:34:44 +0000

On Tue, 2005-01-11 at 07:42 -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> On Tuesday 11 January 2005 06:56, Simon Riggs wrote:
> > That looks like clear infringement to me to claim that they ever could
> > have a trademark on the phrase "pervasive postgres"...
>
> Whose trademark would it infringe upon? Berkely's ? After all this community
> has no hold over the name Postgres. I also think that as long as they
> continue to use the terms "pervasive postgres" for thier product and
> "postgresql" for the community on a consistent basis, there should be much
> issue. Certainly no more than companies like postgresql inc and postgresql
> international and that company that sells mammoth postgresql and other
> examples

> ... we're a mixing pot on that end, and I think pervasive looks like
> they are trying to approach things above board, so I think we should give
> them as much helpful feedback as we can and be proud that an established
> player wants to be a part of this community.

Well spoken. I withdraw my criticisms and will act as you say.

--
Best Regards, Simon Riggs

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From:	Joshua D. Drake
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:32:11 -0800

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Bruce Momjian wrote:

>Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>
>
>>Josh Berkus wrote:
>>
>>
>>>By now, you may have seen the news announcement around Pervasive
>>>starting a supported version of PostgreSQL.
>>>http://www.pervasivepostgres.com/
>>>
>>>
>>I think they should start by deciding on a spelling of their (and our)
>>product.
>>
>>And then they should stop marking it as a trademark.
>>
>>
>
>I assume "Pervasive Postgres" is their trademark, not just "Postgres".
>That seems OK to me, no?
>
>
Yes it is probably Pervasiv Postgres that is the trademark.
Which is fine, the other trademark would be PostgreSQL.

J

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

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org:Command Prompt, Inc.
adr:;;PO Box 215 ;Cascade Locks;OR;97014;US
email;internet:jd@commandprompt.com
title:Consultant
tel;work:503-667-4564
tel;fax:503-210-0334
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.commandprompt.com
version:2.1
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From:	Robert Bernier
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:37:17 -0500

On January 10, 2005 11:32 pm, you wrote:
> >I assume "Pervasive Postgres" is their trademark, not just "Postgres".
> >That seems OK to me, no?
>
> Yes it is probably Pervasiv Postgres that is the trademark.
> Which is fine, the other trademark would be PostgreSQL.
>

I remember stories back in the 70's of Greek restaurants in Toronto being ordered to remove all mention of the word "Olympic" in their name when the summer games came to Montreal.

Pervasive technically requires permission to use the word PostgreSQL in their title. That is the law folks but whether or not you want to follow the letter of the law is another matter.

robert b

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From:	Simon Riggs
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:56:10 +0000

On Mon, 2005-01-10 at 23:16 -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> > Josh Berkus wrote:
> > > By now, you may have seen the news announcement around Pervasive
> > > starting a supported version of PostgreSQL.
> > > http://www.pervasivepostgres.com/
> >
> > I think they should start by deciding on a spelling of their (and our)
> > product.
> >
> > And then they should stop marking it as a trademark.
>
> I assume "Pervasive Postgres" is their trademark, not just "Postgres".
> That seems OK to me, no?

I'm not sure...if they called their site Pervasive Red Hat or Pervasive
Software Research America or Pervasive 2nd Quadrant, we'd all agree that
it was wrong.

That looks like clear infringement to me to claim that they ever could
have a trademark on the phrase "pervasive postgres"...

--
Best Regards, Simon Riggs

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend

From:	Robert Treat
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:42:29 -0500

On Tuesday 11 January 2005 06:56, Simon Riggs wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-01-10 at 23:16 -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> > > Josh Berkus wrote:
> > > > By now, you may have seen the news announcement around Pervasive
> > > > starting a supported version of PostgreSQL.
> > > > http://www.pervasivepostgres.com/
> > >
> > > I think they should start by deciding on a spelling of their (and our)
> > > product.
> > >
> > > And then they should stop marking it as a trademark.
> >
> > I assume "Pervasive Postgres" is their trademark, not just "Postgres".
> > That seems OK to me, no?
>
> I'm not sure...if they called their site Pervasive Red Hat or Pervasive
> Software Research America or Pervasive 2nd Quadrant, we'd all agree that
> it was wrong.
>
> That looks like clear infringement to me to claim that they ever could
> have a trademark on the phrase "pervasive postgres"...

Whose trademark would it infringe upon? Berkely's ? After all this community
has no hold over the name Postgres. I also think that as long as they
continue to use the terms "pervasive postgres" for thier product and
"postgresql" for the community on a consistent basis, there should be much
issue. Certainly no more than companies like postgresql inc and postgresql
international and that company that sells mammoth postgresql and other
examples... we're a mixing pot on that end, and I think pervasive looks like
they are trying to approach things above board, so I think we should give
them as much helpful feedback as we can and be proud that an established
player wants to be a part of this community.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

From:	Tatsuo Ishii
Subject:	Re: what about PostgreSQL certification ?
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:09:11 +0900 (JST)

> Hi Everybody,
> here Simone from distant Italy!
>
> My company is studying some sort of Linux certification, focused on debian.
>
> I was curious to know your point of view about pgsql certifications,
> both "alone" or inserted inside a wider certification (for example,
> sysadmin certification, that includes apache, postfix, postgresql).

We (Software Research Associates, Inc.: HQ in Tokyo, Japan) will
launch a world wide PostgreSQL certification program in the near
future. As someone has already pointed out, it needs great
effort. However we believe it would help to make PostgreSQL more
popular.
--
Tatsuo Ishii

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From:	Fred Moyer
Subject:	Re: what about PostgreSQL certification ?
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:12:34 -0800 (PST)

>> I was curious to know your point of view about pgsql certifications,
>> both "alone" or inserted inside a wider certification (for example,
>> sysadmin certification, that includes apache, postfix, postgresql).
>
> We (Software Research Associates, Inc.: HQ in Tokyo, Japan) will
> launch a world wide PostgreSQL certification program in the near
> future. As someone has already pointed out, it needs great
> effort. However we believe it would help to make PostgreSQL more
> popular.

I went to the Big Nerd Ranch (http://bignerdranch.com) about a year ago
for their PostgreSQL Bootcamp. I had been using PostgreSQL at the time
for four years, and I came away with a more complete knowledgebase that I
had going in. The workload is intense, and the curriculum is mature.

I'd recommend it to any company out there looking to get their dba's
certified on PostgreSQL.

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From:	Peter Eisentraut
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:01:12 +0100

Am Dienstag, 11. Januar 2005 13:42 schrieb Robert Treat:
> Whose trademark would it infringe upon?

The point is, they are claiming trademark on a name that was hitherto free for
everyone to use.

--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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From:	Michael Paesold
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:21:26 +0100

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Am Dienstag, 11. Januar 2005 13:42 schrieb Robert Treat:
>> Whose trademark would it infringe upon?
>
> The point is, they are claiming trademark on a name that was hitherto free
> for
> everyone to use.

I have to agree with Peter. They could use "postgres" like everyone else
does, but claiming a trademark even on "Pervasive Postgres" seems bad. Josh,
you said you are in contact with them. Could you find out what they think
about this issue?

Best Regards,
Michael Paesold

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From:	Joshua D. Drake
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:11:33 -0800

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Peter Eisentraut wrote:

>Am Dienstag, 11. Januar 2005 13:42 schrieb Robert Treat:
>
>
>>Whose trademark would it infringe upon?
>>
>>
>
>The point is, they are claiming trademark on a name that was hitherto free for
>everyone to use.
>
>
Oh good point. Maybe a simple note from Josh Berkus letting them
know about that would be a good idea.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

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--------------030507070409070208070406--

From:	Robert Bernier
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:46:12 -0500

On January 11, 2005 11:11 am, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> >Am Dienstag, 11. Januar 2005 13:42 schrieb Robert Treat:
> >>Whose trademark would it infringe upon?
> >
> >The point is, they are claiming trademark on a name that was hitherto free
> > for everyone to use.
>
> Oh good point. Maybe a simple note from Josh Berkus letting them
> know about that would be a good idea.

This kind of thing is going to bite us someday. All it takes is one bastard.

robert b

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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

From:	Josh Berkus
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:19:44 -0800

Peter, Robert, Simon, etc:

> > >The point is, they are claiming trademark on a name that was hitherto
> > > free for everyone to use.
> >
> > Oh good point. Maybe a simple note from Josh Berkus letting them
> > know about that would be a good idea.
>
> This kind of thing is going to bite us someday. All it takes is one
> bastard.

Lance (of Pervasive) actually has been replying to this thread, but there's
something wrong with his subscribtion and the stuff is held up for
moderation. You'll see it soon. To sum up:

Their trademark is "Pervasive Postgres", not "Postgres" and not "PostgreSQL".
This makes sense, and I'd trust their lawyers investigated its
enforcability/legality. None of us, last I checked, are attorneys.

For that matter, Josh Drake has a trademark on "Mammoth" in the context of
"PostgreSQL", and has had for a year. SRA has a trademark on "PowerGres".
Last year, the ill-fated Lon James briefly incorporated as "Postgres Inc."
None of this has interfered in any way with the community's ability to
distribute stuff and use the words we want to.

FWIW, the various companies using the name "PostgreSQL" for products have,as a
rule, contacted the Core Team to discuss it first, and received "permission"
from at least one Core member. While this is hardly legally formal, we do
have some kind of process for the trademark.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

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From:	Simone Brunozzi
Subject:	what about PostgreSQL certification ?
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:18:55 +0100

Hi Everybody,
here Simone from distant Italy!

My company is studying some sort of Linux certification, focused on debian.

I was curious to know your point of view about pgsql certifications,
both "alone" or inserted inside a wider certification (for example,
sysadmin certification, that includes apache, postfix, postgresql).

Thanks for any suggestion and/or comment!

--

Ing. iunior Simone Brunozzi

WEDOIT s.a.s. - Soluzioni informatiche

Via protomartiri Francescani, 26
06088 Assisi (PG) - ITALY

www.wedoit.us

Tel. +39 075-8041195
Cell. +39 340-5768488
---------------------------------------

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From:	Peter Eisentraut
Subject:	Re: what about PostgreSQL certification ?
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:39:26 +0100

Am Dienstag, 11. Januar 2005 16:18 schrieb Simone Brunozzi:
> I was curious to know your point of view about pgsql certifications,
> both "alone" or inserted inside a wider certification (for example,
> sysadmin certification, that includes apache, postfix, postgresql).

This subject has already been discussed extensively. Searching the net should
give you an impression.

--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/

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From:	Christopher Browne
Subject:	Re: what about PostgreSQL certification ?
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:39:38 -0500

simone.brunozzi@wedoit.us (Simone Brunozzi) writes:
> Hi Everybody,
> here Simone from distant Italy!
>
> My company is studying some sort of Linux certification, focused on debian.
>
> I was curious to know your point of view about pgsql certifications,
> both "alone" or inserted inside a wider certification (for example,
> sysadmin certification, that includes apache, postfix, postgresql).

This has been discussed in the past.

It's a "neat idea," but it takes a great deal of effort to assemble
and administer certification programs, and nobody has emerged that has
been willing to invest that effort.
--
"cbbrowne","@","ca.afilias.info"

Christopher Browne
(416) 673-4124 (land)

From:	Robert Bernier
Subject:	Re: what about PostgreSQL certification ?
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:51:11 -0500

On January 11, 2005 04:39 pm, Christopher Browne wrote:
> simone.brunozzi@wedoit.us (Simone Brunozzi) writes:
> >
> > My company is studying some sort of Linux certification, focused on
> > debian.
>
> This has been discussed in the past.
>
> It's a "neat idea," but it takes a great deal of effort to assemble
> and administer certification programs, and nobody has emerged that has
> been willing to invest that effort.

Acutally, there are number of companies doing something but none of it hasn't
gotten any large scale recognition.

--
Robert Bernier
PostgreSQL Business Intelligence Analyst,
SRA AMERICA (Formerly of One WTC)
Consulting, PostgreSQL Services & PowerGres on Windows
One Penn Plaza, Suite 1910
New York, NY 10119

Tel: 212.244.8833

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From:	Joshua D. Drake
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:04:04 -0800

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>>I assume "Pervasive Postgres" is their trademark, not just "Postgres".
>>That seems OK to me, no?
>>
>>
>
>I'm not sure...if they called their site Pervasive Red Hat or Pervasive
>Software Research America or Pervasive 2nd Quadrant, we'd all agree that
>it was wrong.
>
>
Except that we don't have a trademark on postgres as far as I know.
We (the community) have a trademark on PostgreSQL, so there is
no infringement.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

>That looks like clear infringement to me to claim that they ever could
>have a trademark on the phrase "pervasive postgres"...
>
>
>

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL

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tel;work:503-667-4564
tel;fax:503-210-0334
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--------------070500030007040409060908--

From:	Oleg Bartunov
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:48:44 +0300 (MSK)

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Am Dienstag, 11. Januar 2005 13:42 schrieb Robert Treat:
>> Whose trademark would it infringe upon?
>
> The point is, they are claiming trademark on a name that was hitherto free for
> everyone to use.
>

I agree with Peter, but I don't see what we could do besides
public blame.

>

Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83

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From:	Simon Riggs
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:04:18 +0000

On Mon, 2005-01-10 at 12:24 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> They *are* serious about contributing to the project. If anyone has any
> questions, you should refer them to me; I'm in contact with the Pervasive
> people.

It's good to see other companies join in.

Is that will contribute, or have contributed?... I hadn't noticed...

--
Best Regards, Simon Riggs

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From:	Mitch Pirtle
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:28:57 -0500

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 01:32:09 -0400 (AST), Marc G. Fournier
wrote:
>
> Since I run a non-flash browsr, can you desscribe it to me? :)

Nah, you're too busy hitting stones together to start a fire :^P

-- Mitch

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From:	Josh Berkus
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:42:06 -0800

People:

> wrote:
> > Since I run a non-flash browsr, can you desscribe it to me? :)
>
> Nah, you're too busy hitting stones together to start a fire :^P

Actually, I haven't been able to see the video intro on either Konqueror or
Firefox on Linux. Which is odd, because I can usually access flash just
fine. Lance, if you're reading this, maybe you could talk the web team into
dropping the flash intro? Flash intros are a bit, well, 90's.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

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From:	Marc G. Fournier
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:49:22 -0400 (AST)

Its the one thing too typical of 'modern companies', the use of flash on
their sites ... but, it attracts the Windows users, I guess :)

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005, Rolf Xstvik wrote:

> josh@agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus) wrote in
> news:200501101224.09422.josh@agliodbs.com:
>
>> http://www.pervasivepostgres.com/
>
> I can't open their website.
>
> In internet explorer i can see their website behind the window which ask me
> if i want to install Micromedia Flash Player.
> In Opera it just flashes by (when i have disabled use of plugins).
> Haven't tried Firefox.
>
> If i bother i will try to e-mail their webmaster.
>
> --
> Rolf
>
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----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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From:	Rolf Østvik
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:23:15 +0000 (UTC)

josh@agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus) wrote in
news:200501101224.09422.josh@agliodbs.com:

> http://www.pervasivepostgres.com/

I can't open their website.

In internet explorer i can see their website behind the window which ask me
if i want to install Micromedia Flash Player.
In Opera it just flashes by (when i have disabled use of plugins).
Haven't tried Firefox.

If i bother i will try to e-mail their webmaster.

--
Rolf

From:	John DeSoi
Subject:	Re: Pervasive PostgreSQL Announcement
Date:	Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:25:10 -0500

On Jan 14, 2005, at 4:23 AM, Rolf Østvik wrote:

> I can't open their website.
>
> In internet explorer i can see their website behind the window which
> ask me
> if i want to install Micromedia Flash Player.
> In Opera it just flashes by (when i have disabled use of plugins).
> Haven't tried Firefox.
>
> If i bother i will try to e-mail their webmaster.

I emailed the webmaster that it was not working with Safari or Firefox
on OS X. I received a prompt reply that it has been fixed (it has).
There is no information content in the flash stuff -- you just want to
click on the "Skip Intro" link anyway.

The the use of Flash on web sites really puzzles me, especially for
technical products.

John DeSoi, Ph.D.
http://pgedit.com/
Power Tools for PostgreSQL

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