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 | | From: | Poor Impulse Control | | Subject: | Centerfire plinking/target round? | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:51:29 +0000 (UTC) |
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 | I'll admit to knowing no more about ballistics than some ammo is more
powerful than other ammo, so be gentle and explain if you know why.
Has there ever been a small caliber centerfire plinking target round? I ask
because I saw a .25 auto round for the first time the other day and I
thought "Gee, I wonder why nobody ever chambered a target pistol in .25 auto
or a .25 auto derivative?" It occured to me for the following reasons:
Most every autoloading .22LR gun is picky with ammo. How much of this is
due to the handling of a rimmed case vs. a rimless autoloader case? Would a
autoloader rimless case with power comparable .22LR provide better feeding
than the rimmed .22LR case?
A reloadable case (you can reload .25, can't you?) would allow for powder
charge and bullet selection flexibility. If the supposition than a rimless
case provides more reliable feeding, we might be able to have one gun/spring
setup that can eat more variable ammunition (low, standard, high velocity,
etc) instead of guns (like my model 41) that often prefer one type or even
brand of ammo (mine likes Federal and Winchester standard velocity thusfar;
haven't tried high velocity but rimfire forums suggest not).
I mention .25 auto simply because of case design and similarity in size and
ballistics (albeit slightly more anemic) to .22LR. It would seem that my
concept would benefit from a .25 auto case streched by 2-4 mm for a
different bullet or greater powder charge. It might even be interesting to
see a .22 target style gun (or a 1911 conversion) with a longer barrell
chambered in .25 auto as it exists now.
I'm sure the reasons this has never been done are manifold. .22LR is dirt
cheap, offered in a zillion loads/bullets, feeds reliably enough (my
misfeeds with my model 41 have been first-round chamberings on a full
magazine; nothing else), and maybe the ballistic variation in such a small
round might not be of any interest to reloaders.
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| | From: | Nick Hull | | Subject: | Re: Centerfire plinking/target round? | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:20:24 +0000 (UTC) |
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| In article ,
"Poor Impulse Control" wrote:
# I'll admit to knowing no more about ballistics than some ammo is more
# powerful than other ammo, so be gentle and explain if you know why.
#
# Has there ever been a small caliber centerfire plinking target round? I ask
# because I saw a .25 auto round for the first time the other day and I
# thought "Gee, I wonder why nobody ever chambered a target pistol in .25 auto
# or a .25 auto derivative?" It occured to me for the following reasons:
#
# Most every autoloading .22LR gun is picky with ammo. How much of this is
# due to the handling of a rimmed case vs. a rimless autoloader case? Would a
# autoloader rimless case with power comparable .22LR provide better feeding
# than the rimmed .22LR case?
#
# A reloadable case (you can reload .25, can't you?) would allow for powder
# charge and bullet selection flexibility. If the supposition than a rimless
# case provides more reliable feeding,.....
Sure you can reload the .25, if you can find the brass. Most gets lost
fast, especially anong the piles of 22lr brass. Not t0 mention the
problem getting bullets, .25 bullets are expensive and not easy to cast
because they are so small. For reloading it is better to go up to 38
special (or at least a .32) to get brass that is EZ to fine and handle
and bullets that are EZ to cast or even cheap to buy.
..22lr is cheap, and you can easily find a gun and ammo combination that
is 100% reliable.
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
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| | From: | GLC1173 | | Subject: | Re: Centerfire plinking/target round? | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:20:07 +0000 (UTC) |
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| Poor Impulse Control wrote:
#Has there ever been a small caliber >centerfire plinking target round?
Sure - 5.56mm! Mil-spec ammo for it is cheaper than some .22LR and a whole
lot of it is used for plinking. This ammo is so cheap as to not be worth
reloading for anything but making custom loads.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dissident news - plus immigration, gun rights, weather, Internet Gun Show
ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT:
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| | From: | Tony Belding | | Subject: | Re: Centerfire plinking/target round? | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:42:41 +0000 (UTC) |
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| On 2005-01-21 18:51:29 -0600, "Poor Impulse Control"
said:
# I'll admit to knowing no more about ballistics than some ammo is more
# powerful than other ammo, so be gentle and explain if you know why.
#
# Has there ever been a small caliber centerfire plinking target round?
It's called 32 S&W. It's a good cartridge (albeit mostly used in
revolvers, plus a few specialized target pistols), but not very popular
anymore. Most revolver guys would rather shoot a 38 Special, it seems.
For automatics I guess the closest equivalent would be 9mm Luger. The
ammo is inexpensive because it's ubiquitous. It's economies of scale
at work.
# I ask because I saw a .25 auto round for the first time the other day
# and I thought "Gee, I wonder why nobody ever chambered a target pistol
# in .25 auto or a .25 auto derivative?"
The short answer. . . It's not economical. Centerfire rounds cost
more to manufacture than rimfire, and a 25 ACP is usually considered
slightly less powerful or less effective than 22LR.
When a centerfire cartridge gets down below a certain size, material
costs become an insignificant fraction of the total cost. In other
words. . . I would be surprised if a 25 ACP bullet costs any less
than a 9mm bullet or a 25 ACP case is any cheaper than a 9mm case. If
anything I would expect the 9mm components to be cheaper because they
are produced in such huge quantities, they get economies of scale and
are produced by a lot of competing firms. Both cartridges use the same
primers, and the difference in the powder charge doesn't amount to much
from an economic standpoint.
That's the same reason why it costs just as much (or more) to shoot 22
Hornet as it does to shoot 223 Remington in a rifle. The 223 cartridge
and components are produced in mass quantities, so there's no
*economic* incentive to go smaller with a centerfire rifle cartridge.
(But there can be reasons other than economic.)
# Most every autoloading .22LR gun is picky with ammo. How much of this
# is due to the handling of a rimmed case vs. a rimless autoloader case?
# Would a autoloader rimless case with power comparable .22LR provide
# better feeding than the rimmed .22LR case?
That's not strictly true. Many of our full-sized 22 LR pistols, like
the Ruger Mk2 and Browning Buckmark, are both reliable and pretty
accurate. It's the tiny "pocket" pistols that seem to have trouble
handling the cartridge. That's why John Browning designed the 25 ACP
in the first place. However. . . In recent years it has become
possible to put a 32 ACP into a pistol of the same size (like the
Kel-Tec), so 25 ACP is becoming practically obsolete.
# A reloadable case (you can reload .25, can't you?)
I've read that it's a real pain. Handling those small components is
awkward, and the tiny powder charges have to be measured with great
precision. Few reloaders would choose to do this rather than simply
buying another brick of 22 LR.
# I'm sure the reasons this has never been done are manifold. .22LR is
# dirt cheap, offered in a zillion loads/bullets, feeds reliably enough
# (my misfeeds with my model 41 have been first-round chamberings on a
# full magazine; nothing else), and maybe the ballistic variation in such
# a small round might not be of any interest to reloaders.
My suppressed Buck Mark is great fun to shoot. It's reliable as long
as I feed it the ammo it likes (CCI or Aguila), and as long as I keep
all the screws tightened down and keep it clean. 22 LR ammo is
notoriously dirty, both in terms of dirty-burning powder and the waxy
lubricants used on the bullets.
--
Tony Belding, Hamilton Texas
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| | From: | Doug T | | Subject: | Re: Centerfire plinking/target round? | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:43:05 +0000 (UTC) |
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| Alright, no one has spoke up yet so I'll toss in my two cents, do a web
search for 32 target pistol or 32 target revolver. I have seen some talk
about high accuracy 32S&W loads for target shooting. Certainly the case
is small enough to be economical to use. You could shoot 32 S&W short,
long, 32H&R magnum, and 32-20 depending on what gun your using. A 32 S&W
in anything but an ultralight pistol is pleasant enough to shoot. The
only down side is the limited number of guns and factory ammo, making
cost higher. And the lack of sports organized around shooting the 32 cal.
I also understand it's a great round for some game.
Doug T
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| | From: | Nick Hull | | Subject: | Re: Centerfire plinking/target round? | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:20:23 +0000 (UTC) |
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| In article ,
"Poor Impulse Control" wrote:
# I'll admit to knowing no more about ballistics than some ammo is more
# powerful than other ammo, so be gentle and explain if you know why.
#
# Has there ever been a small caliber centerfire plinking target round? I ask
# because I saw a .25 auto round for the first time the other day and I
# thought "Gee, I wonder why nobody ever chambered a target pistol in .25 auto
# or a .25 auto derivative?" It occured to me for the following reasons:
#
# Most every autoloading .22LR gun is picky with ammo. How much of this is
# due to the handling of a rimmed case vs. a rimless autoloader case? Would a
# autoloader rimless case with power comparable .22LR provide better feeding
# than the rimmed .22LR case?
#
# A reloadable case (you can reload .25, can't you?) would allow for powder
# charge and bullet selection flexibility. If the supposition than a rimless
# case provides more reliable feeding,.....
Sure you can reload the .25, if you can find the brass. Most gets lost
fast, especially anong the piles of 22lr brass. Not t0 mention the
problem getting bullets, .25 bullets are expensive and not easy to cast
because they are so small. For reloading it is better to go up to 38
special (or at least a .32) to get brass that is EZ to fine and handle
and bullets that are EZ to cast or even cheap to buy.
..22lr is cheap, and you can easily find a gun and ammo combination that
is 100% reliable.
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
------------------------------------------------------------------
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stock system in the MPFO Rifle Raffle. Help the Cause at the same
time! Get all the details at http://www.myguns.net
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|
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| | From: | Tony Belding | | Subject: | Re: Centerfire plinking/target round? | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:42:40 +0000 (UTC) |
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| On 2005-01-21 18:51:29 -0600, "Poor Impulse Control"
said:
# I'll admit to knowing no more about ballistics than some ammo is more
# powerful than other ammo, so be gentle and explain if you know why.
#
# Has there ever been a small caliber centerfire plinking target round?
It's called 32 S&W. It's a good cartridge (albeit mostly used in
revolvers, plus a few specialized target pistols), but not very popular
anymore. Most revolver guys would rather shoot a 38 Special, it seems.
For automatics I guess the closest equivalent would be 9mm Luger. The
ammo is inexpensive because it's ubiquitous. It's economies of scale
at work.
# I ask because I saw a .25 auto round for the first time the other day
# and I thought "Gee, I wonder why nobody ever chambered a target pistol
# in .25 auto or a .25 auto derivative?"
The short answer. . . It's not economical. Centerfire rounds cost
more to manufacture than rimfire, and a 25 ACP is usually considered
slightly less powerful or less effective than 22LR.
When a centerfire cartridge gets down below a certain size, material
costs become an insignificant fraction of the total cost. In other
words. . . I would be surprised if a 25 ACP bullet costs any less
than a 9mm bullet or a 25 ACP case is any cheaper than a 9mm case. If
anything I would expect the 9mm components to be cheaper because they
are produced in such huge quantities, they get economies of scale and
are produced by a lot of competing firms. Both cartridges use the same
primers, and the difference in the powder charge doesn't amount to much
from an economic standpoint.
That's the same reason why it costs just as much (or more) to shoot 22
Hornet as it does to shoot 223 Remington in a rifle. The 223 cartridge
and components are produced in mass quantities, so there's no
*economic* incentive to go smaller with a centerfire rifle cartridge.
(But there can be reasons other than economic.)
# Most every autoloading .22LR gun is picky with ammo. How much of this
# is due to the handling of a rimmed case vs. a rimless autoloader case?
# Would a autoloader rimless case with power comparable .22LR provide
# better feeding than the rimmed .22LR case?
That's not strictly true. Many of our full-sized 22 LR pistols, like
the Ruger Mk2 and Browning Buckmark, are both reliable and pretty
accurate. It's the tiny "pocket" pistols that seem to have trouble
handling the cartridge. That's why John Browning designed the 25 ACP
in the first place. However. . . In recent years it has become
possible to put a 32 ACP into a pistol of the same size (like the
Kel-Tec), so 25 ACP is becoming practically obsolete.
# A reloadable case (you can reload .25, can't you?)
I've read that it's a real pain. Handling those small components is
awkward, and the tiny powder charges have to be measured with great
precision. Few reloaders would choose to do this rather than simply
buying another brick of 22 LR.
# I'm sure the reasons this has never been done are manifold. .22LR is
# dirt cheap, offered in a zillion loads/bullets, feeds reliably enough
# (my misfeeds with my model 41 have been first-round chamberings on a
# full magazine; nothing else), and maybe the ballistic variation in such
# a small round might not be of any interest to reloaders.
My suppressed Buck Mark is great fun to shoot. It's reliable as long
as I feed it the ammo it likes (CCI or Aguila), and as long as I keep
all the screws tightened down and keep it clean. 22 LR ammo is
notoriously dirty, both in terms of dirty-burning powder and the waxy
lubricants used on the bullets.
--
Tony Belding, Hamilton Texas
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|
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| | From: | Nick Hull | | Subject: | Re: Centerfire plinking/target round? | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:20:25 +0000 (UTC) |
|
|
| In article ,
"Poor Impulse Control" wrote:
# I'll admit to knowing no more about ballistics than some ammo is more
# powerful than other ammo, so be gentle and explain if you know why.
#
# Has there ever been a small caliber centerfire plinking target round? I ask
# because I saw a .25 auto round for the first time the other day and I
# thought "Gee, I wonder why nobody ever chambered a target pistol in .25 auto
# or a .25 auto derivative?" It occured to me for the following reasons:
#
# Most every autoloading .22LR gun is picky with ammo. How much of this is
# due to the handling of a rimmed case vs. a rimless autoloader case? Would a
# autoloader rimless case with power comparable .22LR provide better feeding
# than the rimmed .22LR case?
#
# A reloadable case (you can reload .25, can't you?) would allow for powder
# charge and bullet selection flexibility. If the supposition than a rimless
# case provides more reliable feeding,.....
Sure you can reload the .25, if you can find the brass. Most gets lost
fast, especially anong the piles of 22lr brass. Not t0 mention the
problem getting bullets, .25 bullets are expensive and not easy to cast
because they are so small. For reloading it is better to go up to 38
special (or at least a .32) to get brass that is EZ to fine and handle
and bullets that are EZ to cast or even cheap to buy.
..22lr is cheap, and you can easily find a gun and ammo combination that
is 100% reliable.
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
------------------------------------------------------------------
Win a Fulton Armory M14 rifle prize package with tactical/accuracy
stock system in the MPFO Rifle Raffle. Help the Cause at the same
time! Get all the details at http://www.myguns.net
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| | From: | Brian Bunin | | Subject: | Re: Centerfire plinking/target round? | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:20:17 +0000 (UTC) |
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| In article , "Poor Impulse Control" wrote:
#I'll admit to knowing no more about ballistics than some ammo is more
#powerful than other ammo, so be gentle and explain if you know why.
#
#Has there ever been a small caliber centerfire plinking target round?
..223 Remington?
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