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 | | From: | Nicholas Kutozov | | Subject: | Badge Banners | | Date: | 11 Jan 2005 02:57:44 -0800 |
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 | David Pritchard said:
>Dear Nicholas,
The ensign that you are describing is not an armorial banner but a
badge banner. Very few badge banners have been granted over the past
four hundred years as they fell out of fashion after the Tudor period.
The badge banner partial replaced the standard in England during the
War of the Roses and gained in popularity through the 16th century.
As far as I know, Stephen Slater's badge banner granted by the College
of Arms and my own badge banner registered by the Bureau of Heraldry
two years ago, are the only modern grants of this type of flag.
Information on this type of flag can be found in Robert Gayre's book
"Heraldic Standards and other Ensigns", Colin Campbell's "Medieval
Flags" as well as in Alfred Znamierowski's "The World Encyclopedia of
Flags".
I would blazon Mr. Slater's badge banner as follows:
"On a square banner parted per pale Vert and Gules, from a maunch
Ermine, a right hand Proper (or Carnation), holding a heart Gules. The
banner fringed of the liveries alternating Or and Sable"
Best wishes to all,
David Pritchard<
Thank you for the replies. The impression given is that, although not
common practice, the College of Arms will allow an armigers badge to
be used on a banner and does grant the appropriate "blazon". I make
the assumption therefore that in addition to having the grant of a
badge [A maunch Ermine issuing therefrom a dexter hand proper holding
a human heart Gules] Mr Slater also has the grant of a "badge banner"
blazoned as "On a square banner parted per pale Vert and Gules, a
maunch
Ermine issuing therefrom a dexter hand proper, holding a heart Gules.
The banner fringed of the liveries alternating Or and Sable".
I have mixed feelings about this (to me)newly discovered heraldic
privilege. Surely this is almost the equivalent to having two
achievements since in use a "badge banner" would be to all intents and
purposes indistinguishable from an armigers banner [accepting that the
dimensions of an heraldic banner are not square].
No new armiger could request a grant of arms blazoned "Per pale Vert
and Gules,a maunch Ermine issuing therefrom a dexter hand Proper
holding a heart Gules" simply because, when used on a banner, these
arms would be the same as the badge banner of Mr Slater and Mr
Slater's badge banner would show the "new" armigers arms. To my mind a
potentially confusing situation – perhaps the very reason that "badge
banners" are not so popular.
Nicholas Kutozov
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| | From: | pritchard_da at hotmail.com | | Subject: | Re: Badge Banners | | Date: | 11 Jan 2005 14:47:28 -0800 |
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| Dear Nicholas,
You have pointed out a very interesting aspect of the badge banner,
that it could be confused with an armorial banner especially if it is
composed of a field not of the livery colours, and the badge is not
related to the charges of the arms or related to the crest.
I think that the design of Mr. Slater's badge banner could easily be
confused with another man's arms. When I designed my badge banner, I
used the same field as in my arms, fringed it of my liveries and
charged it with a variation of my crest and the charges of my mantling,
so that an intelligent person could see that there was an obvious
relationship between my badge banner and arms, and thus that they
belonged to the same person.
Best wishes,
David Pritchard
Nicholas Kutozov wrote:
> David Pritchard said:
> >Dear Nicholas,
>
> The ensign that you are describing is not an armorial banner but a
> badge banner. Very few badge banners have been granted over the past
> four hundred years as they fell out of fashion after the Tudor
period.
> The badge banner partial replaced the standard in England during the
> War of the Roses and gained in popularity through the 16th century.
>
> As far as I know, Stephen Slater's badge banner granted by the
College
> of Arms and my own badge banner registered by the Bureau of Heraldry
> two years ago, are the only modern grants of this type of flag.
>
> Information on this type of flag can be found in Robert Gayre's book
> "Heraldic Standards and other Ensigns", Colin Campbell's "Medieval
> Flags" as well as in Alfred Znamierowski's "The World Encyclopedia of
> Flags".
>
> I would blazon Mr. Slater's badge banner as follows:
>
> "On a square banner parted per pale Vert and Gules, from a maunch
> Ermine, a right hand Proper (or Carnation), holding a heart Gules.
The
> banner fringed of the liveries alternating Or and Sable"
> Best wishes to all,
>
> David Pritchard<
>
> Thank you for the replies. The impression given is that, although not
> common practice, the College of Arms will allow an armigers badge to
> be used on a banner and does grant the appropriate "blazon". I make
> the assumption therefore that in addition to having the grant of a
> badge [A maunch Ermine issuing therefrom a dexter hand proper holding
> a human heart Gules] Mr Slater also has the grant of a "badge banner"
> blazoned as "On a square banner parted per pale Vert and Gules, a
> maunch
> Ermine issuing therefrom a dexter hand proper, holding a heart Gules.
> The banner fringed of the liveries alternating Or and Sable".
>
> I have mixed feelings about this (to me)newly discovered heraldic
> privilege. Surely this is almost the equivalent to having two
> achievements since in use a "badge banner" would be to all intents
and
> purposes indistinguishable from an armigers banner [accepting that
the
> dimensions of an heraldic banner are not square].
>
> No new armiger could request a grant of arms blazoned "Per pale Vert
> and Gules,a maunch Ermine issuing therefrom a dexter hand Proper
> holding a heart Gules" simply because, when used on a banner, these
> arms would be the same as the badge banner of Mr Slater and Mr
> Slater's badge banner would show the "new" armigers arms. To my mind
a
> potentially confusing situation - perhaps the very reason that
"badge
> banners" are not so popular.
>
> Nicholas Kutozov
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| | From: | pritchard_da at hotmail.com | | Subject: | Re: Badge Banners | | Date: | 11 Jan 2005 14:47:24 -0800 |
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| Dear Nicholas,
You have pointed out a very interesting aspect of the badge banner,
that it could be confused with an armorial banner especially if it is
composed of a field not of the livery colours, and the badge is not
related to the charges of the arms or related to the crest.
I think that the design of Mr. Slater's badge banner could easily be
confused with another man's arms. When I designed my badge banner, I
used the same field as in my arms, fringed it of my liveries and
charged it with a variation of my crest and the charges of my mantling,
so that an intelligent person could see that there was an obvious
relationship between my badge banner and arms, and thus that they
belonged to the same person.
Best wishes,
David Pritchard
Nicholas Kutozov wrote:
> David Pritchard said:
> >Dear Nicholas,
>
> The ensign that you are describing is not an armorial banner but a
> badge banner. Very few badge banners have been granted over the past
> four hundred years as they fell out of fashion after the Tudor
period.
> The badge banner partial replaced the standard in England during the
> War of the Roses and gained in popularity through the 16th century.
>
> As far as I know, Stephen Slater's badge banner granted by the
College
> of Arms and my own badge banner registered by the Bureau of Heraldry
> two years ago, are the only modern grants of this type of flag.
>
> Information on this type of flag can be found in Robert Gayre's book
> "Heraldic Standards and other Ensigns", Colin Campbell's "Medieval
> Flags" as well as in Alfred Znamierowski's "The World Encyclopedia of
> Flags".
>
> I would blazon Mr. Slater's badge banner as follows:
>
> "On a square banner parted per pale Vert and Gules, from a maunch
> Ermine, a right hand Proper (or Carnation), holding a heart Gules.
The
> banner fringed of the liveries alternating Or and Sable"
> Best wishes to all,
>
> David Pritchard<
>
> Thank you for the replies. The impression given is that, although not
> common practice, the College of Arms will allow an armigers badge to
> be used on a banner and does grant the appropriate "blazon". I make
> the assumption therefore that in addition to having the grant of a
> badge [A maunch Ermine issuing therefrom a dexter hand proper holding
> a human heart Gules] Mr Slater also has the grant of a "badge banner"
> blazoned as "On a square banner parted per pale Vert and Gules, a
> maunch
> Ermine issuing therefrom a dexter hand proper, holding a heart Gules.
> The banner fringed of the liveries alternating Or and Sable".
>
> I have mixed feelings about this (to me)newly discovered heraldic
> privilege. Surely this is almost the equivalent to having two
> achievements since in use a "badge banner" would be to all intents
and
> purposes indistinguishable from an armigers banner [accepting that
the
> dimensions of an heraldic banner are not square].
>
> No new armiger could request a grant of arms blazoned "Per pale Vert
> and Gules,a maunch Ermine issuing therefrom a dexter hand Proper
> holding a heart Gules" simply because, when used on a banner, these
> arms would be the same as the badge banner of Mr Slater and Mr
> Slater's badge banner would show the "new" armigers arms. To my mind
a
> potentially confusing situation - perhaps the very reason that
"badge
> banners" are not so popular.
>
> Nicholas Kutozov
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