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 | | From: | j_sutton33 at yahoo.com | | Subject: | Count Thomas Arundell | | Date: | 11 Jan 2005 21:42:58 -0800 |
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 | Thomas Arundell gained the title of Count of the Holy Roman Empire. I
have read that his title can be passed to both male and female
descendants. Is this true?
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| | From: | Stephen | | Subject: | Re: Count Thomas Arundell | | Date: | 13 Jan 2005 03:22:47 -0800 |
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| Guy
Whilst I do have Arundell's in my family tree, they are not from Thomas
Arundell's branch. Just to make things clear, you are saying that the
Imperial Patent applies to the male line only - now extinct?
I dare say that here is a certain attraction to being a Count or
Countess and many will be delving into their ancestry hoping to find
Thomas there. No doubt it will assist sales of various books listing
his descendants. There is one in PDF format whose blurb states:
The Genealogy of the Arundell Family
The genealogy of the Arundell family of Wardour, Lanherne etc.
including the full text of the original grant of Rudolph II, Holy Roman
Emperor, creating Thomas Arundell of Wardour and all and each of his
children, heirs, posterity, and descendants of either , born or to
be born, for ever, hereditary Counts of the Holy Roman Empire, as
confirmed by the College of Arms.
The same claim is repeated in Burke's Peerage 1881 - not necessarily an
authority in itself I know.
Yours aye
Stephen
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| | From: | pritchard_da at hotmail.com | | Subject: | Re: Count Thomas Arundell | | Date: | 11 Jan 2005 21:53:54 -0800 |
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| The title of Count of the Holy Roman Empire passes through the male
line, father to legitimate sons and legitimate daughters, the title
Countess of the daughter being only hers until marriage or for her
life, depending upon the wording of the warrant. The title is
hereditary for all legitimate male line descendents. A provision could
be made by the granting ruler designating a female heir if there were
no male heirs to the title.
j_sutto...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Thomas Arundell gained the title of Count of the Holy Roman Empire.
I
> have read that his title can be passed to both male and female
> descendants. Is this true?
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| | From: | Tim Powys-Lybbe | | Subject: | Re: Count Thomas Arundell | | Date: | Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:19:41 GMT |
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| In message of 12 Jan, j_sutton33@yahoo.com wrote:
> Thomas Arundell gained the title of Count of the Holy Roman Empire. I
> have read that his title can be passed to both male and female
> descendants. Is this true?
>
I suspect you would need to ask the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.
Otherwise you are in the same state as the holders of Irish peerages
which have no place in either England or Ireland, that is they are
empty names that anyone can use however they wish, as long as they don't
wish to defraud anyone thereby.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
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| | From: | Guy Stair Sainty | | Subject: | Re: Count Thomas Arundell | | Date: | 12 Jan 2005 11:58:09 -0800 |
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| In article <56fbff2b4d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Powys-Lybbe says...
>
>In message of 12 Jan, j_sutton33@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Thomas Arundell gained the title of Count of the Holy Roman Empire. I
>> have read that his title can be passed to both male and female
>> descendants. Is this true?
>>
>
>I suspect you would need to ask the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.
>Otherwise you are in the same state as the holders of Irish peerages
>which have no place in either England or Ireland, that is they are
>empty names that anyone can use however they wish, as long as they don't
>wish to defraud anyone thereby.
>
I have given a detailed reply to this individual, who emailed me, along with
several other Arundell descendants who apparently want to foster the legend
that there was something unique about the HRE grant to their ancestor.
Unfatortunately Horace Round bears much responsibility for this, as he applied
his extensive understanding of the British peerage to an intepretation of
imperial patents that was faulty ni both translation and content. For some
reason the Arundell descendants in the female line, some many generations
removed, have become tediously obsessive about this. I received one thoroughly
intemperate email, couched in offensive terms, because she considered me so
completely wrong on my page on my web site referring to this creation as
extinct. I guess the desire to be a count or countess of the HRE is still
very strong 198 years after the empire collapsed.
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
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