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 | | From: | caterbro at my-deja.com | | Subject: | Re: We Are All Torturers Now | | Date: | 20 Jan 2005 06:55:29 -0800 |
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Chas wrote:
> Too facile.
> Islam is a conquering, warrior religion that comes, takes your toys
and
> kills you. They are a thirteen hundred year Inquisition, Carl.
in comparative terms, by objective criteria, they are certainly no
worse than any other cultural meme and have points of admiration over
many.
you are persistently defining both your premisse and conclusion in the
absence of comparative facts- you might as well be saying, "it's in the
bible, so it must be true". why are you so attached to this manichean
view of wrold affairs? they are so much more reliably and effectively
understood with logical, deterministic analysis.
> Poop.
> You're trying to force it into the mold that you learned in economics
class
> or something. It's hard for you to conceive of people motivated by
religion.
> It was the reason for 'Bosnia', it's the reason for terrorism, it's
the
> reason for Iraq.
no- you MUST understand the context and causes for interstate action in
clear, objective determinations; these include cultural and economic
motivations that MUST then be balanced with reason. or is that too
facile. you think i picked this up in some xcollidge course; you think
i read a tract or maybe a barnes and noble book on economics- you could
not be further wrong. I'm an expereinced, semi-professional researcher;
the conclusions i casually opine only LOOK easy, but I've done the
legwork to back them up.
you, on the other hand, seem to have found a comfortable alcove into
which you can tuck your self and fullisade all comers with a
one-size-fits-all bunch of hooey that lets you square your personal
prejudices qith your guilty intellectual conscience.
> Neither of whom are threats to the region at all.
> You can't go after Iran because it's a religious government and it
would be
> seen as an attack on Islam-
bullshit- that's what we did in afghanistan and it worked out fine, and
had we leveled Iran, the muslim world might well have had far more
leniecy of opinion with our actions.
>Saddam had no such association, and it was/is
> easy to go in and use him as a demonstration project about what
happens when
> you fuck with the bull.
except that's NOT what happened. in their eyes, we just spent a decade
abusing a regional collaborator for not toeing the line and then found
a way to to snatch his booty for our own aggrandization. invading Iraq
could not represent a more profound and alarming demonstration of
imperial ambition to middle eastern eyes. had we invaded Iran, they
would have said, "ah-hah, that what hapens when you declare yourself an
eneny and threaten the US." now, all they see is the bald treachery the
US bestows on it's allies.
carl
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| | From: | Chas | | Subject: | Re: We Are All Torturers Now | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:05:33 -0700 |
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| >> Too facile.
>> Islam is a conquering, warrior religion that comes, takes your toys
> and
>> kills you. They are a thirteen hundred year Inquisition, Carl.
> in comparative terms, by objective criteria, they are certainly no
> worse than any other cultural meme and have points of admiration over
> many.
Which simply makes them a more implacable and threatening enemy.
One cannot be objective about that when one is the object of the exercise.
I don't know where you think you stand in relation to them, but as far as I
can see, you're at the top of their list, Carl.
> you are persistently defining both your premisse and conclusion in the
> absence of comparative facts-
The 'comparative fact' is that they've made war on everyone with whom
they've come in contact, and we're at the top of *that* list, buddy.
> you might as well be saying, "it's in the
> bible, so it must be true". why are you so attached to this manichean
> view of wrold affairs? they are so much more reliably and effectively
> understood with logical, deterministic analysis.
It's staring at you.
Whatever it is that motivates you is not consistent throughout the world.
It's not economic, or they wouldn't be making war on poor people. It isn't
political, or they wouldn't be making war on every competing system, or on
different systems. It isn't racial, it isn't 'social'; it's religious.
And it's been going on for thirteen hundred years.
Do you detect a pattern there, Mr. Researcher?
> no- you MUST understand the context and causes for interstate action in
> clear, objective determinations; these include cultural and economic
> motivations that MUST then be balanced with reason. or is that too
> facile.
It certainly ignores the tenets of religion that promise the delights of
Paradise for killing people like you, Carl.
And seeing that it includes killing everybody else that doesn't Submit to
the Caliphate and Recite the Oath of Allegiance, that kind of obviates
'cultural' and 'economic' motivations as the raison d'etre of their
aggression.
> you think i picked this up in some xcollidge course; you think
> i read a tract or maybe a barnes and noble book on economics- you could
> not be further wrong. I'm an expereinced, semi-professional researcher;
> the conclusions i casually opine only LOOK easy, but I've done the
> legwork to back them up.
You remind me of art historians that ascribe political/social motivations to
artists' choices without knowing that it's just because 'blue' is cheap.
Your own life choices filter your perceptions of motivation, goal
identification, social permissions and constraints.
Look at Islam in confrontation with every other system/model it's met.
Nothing about economics, nothing about culture except as regards religion,
nothing about a political model. It's consistent from North Africa to the
Filipines- no motivation except that of religion.
> you, on the other hand, seem to have found a comfortable alcove into
> which you can tuck your self and fullisade all comers with a
> one-size-fits-all bunch of hooey that lets you square your personal
> prejudices qith your guilty intellectual conscience.
I notice there's no refutation.
Tell me that muslims are fighting in the Filipines over 'oil', or destroying
the Bamiyans because of resentment against Western decadence, or killing
non-muslims in Indonesia because of foreign warriors on Holy Land in SA, or
practicing genocidal war against the tribalists of the Sudan in protest
against American support of Israel.
>> You can't go after Iran because it's a religious government and it
> would be
>> seen as an attack on Islam-
> bullshit- that's what we did in afghanistan and it worked out fine, and
> had we leveled Iran, the muslim world might well have had far more
> leniecy of opinion with our actions.
In Afghanistan, we targeted the Taliban and enlisted the help of the locals
that already hated them. We also told everybody in the world that they could
either learn to love it or go to war.
And rightly so.
Aggressing against Iran, except through our local proxy, Saddam, would have
forced muslims all over the world to take their part. Saddam was titularly
'secular', so smashing his monkey ass was a good demonstration project for
the zealots. It gives us another staging area to deal with them from, and
gives them something to think about when they're gathered around the
water-holes in the desert.
> except that's NOT what happened. in their eyes, we just spent a decade
> abusing a regional collaborator for not toeing the line
'toeing' what 'line'?
Saddam was getting along just fine in the dictator business- after replacing
the previous 5,000 year line of dictators- before he ever met us. Furnishing
him weapons to go attack our enemy, Iran, was just as good an idea as
supporting the Mujahideen against the Soviet Union- who cares who wins?
Saddam went progressively nuttier- it happens.
>.....and then found
> a way to to snatch his booty for our own aggrandization.
What?
The UN and his European buddies made the money off the people of Iraq.
Saddam was a cash cow for everybody but his own people.
If the war was over oil, we'd be attacking the Canadians.
> invading Iraq
> could not represent a more profound and alarming demonstration of
> imperial ambition to middle eastern eyes.
'Imperial ambition'?
When we impose something, it's 'freedom'; it's 'egalitarian'; it's
'protection of the minority'.
When the Oil Cartel declared oil to be a strategic weapon, it was an act of
war. You don't have strategies or weapons unless you're at war. When Saddam
torched the wells in Kuwait, for example, he made a direct use- when they
adjust price and availability, they are using it more indirectly, but still
with a social/political motivation.
> had we invaded Iran, they
> would have said, "ah-hah, that what hapens when you declare yourself an
> eneny and threaten the US." now, all they see is the bald treachery the
> US bestows on it's allies.
'Bald Treachery' is the stuff of Middle Eastern politics; a long standing
tradition much like Japan (another suiciders religion incidentally).
'Bald Treachery' is the essence of European politics; suspected at all
times, expected sometimes.
And, as you well know in your own life; things change.
We are not the sole initiators of anything, Carl. The world is full of
complex powers and agendas, and we deal with all of them all of the time.
The idea that we're some sort of 'parfait knight', acting from a pure and
moral heart, in the midst of people who take advantage of chumps is just
silly. Pushing our idealism past reasonable limits, and then whining about
getting smacked for it, reeks of hypocrisy.
Who else in the world sets such high moral standards or comes closer to
achieving them than the US?
Certainly no one in the Mid-East or Europe.
Chas
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| | From: | YoJimbo | | Subject: | Re: We Are All Torturers Now | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:56:36 -0600 |
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| In article , chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net says...
>> you are persistently defining both your premisse and conclusion in the
>> absence of comparative facts-
>
>The 'comparative fact' is that they've made war on everyone with whom
>they've come in contact, and we're at the top of *that* list, buddy.
Well, embassy bombings, 9/11 and so on evidently don't count as "facts"
in Carl's world. No, it's a series of US imperialist interventions (for
economic reasons) that are the problem, you see. Let's don't focus too
much on the religious ideology of the other guy when oil is the answer...
>> you might as well be saying, "it's in the
>> bible, so it must be true". why are you so attached to this manichean
>> view of wrold affairs? they are so much more reliably and effectively
>> understood with logical, deterministic analysis.
>
>It's staring at you.
>Whatever it is that motivates you is not consistent throughout the world.
>It's not economic, or they wouldn't be making war on poor people. It isn't
>political, or they wouldn't be making war on every competing system, or on
>different systems. It isn't racial, it isn't 'social'; it's religious.
>And it's been going on for thirteen hundred years.
>Do you detect a pattern there, Mr. Researcher?
It's laughable, but no, Carl does NOT detect a pattern. Let's not bring
history into this, it kind of ruins the US imperialism theme we're working
on, Chas :-))))
>> no- you MUST understand the context and causes for interstate action in
>> clear, objective determinations; these include cultural and economic
>> motivations that MUST then be balanced with reason. or is that too
>> facile.
Give it up, Carl, you have absolutely no idea what "cultural and economic
motivations" a fanatical muslim group has.
I do, however. A bunch of 'em live in my in-laws' neighborhood,
and get direct funding from Al-Qaeda to carry on their "economic motivations"
on the rest of the island. Heck, the other islands too.
I've run across some of these misunderstood friends of Carl, in more peaceful
times- I can't help it considering the location. It takes at least 3 Army
bodyguards watching my butt 24/7 when I go there, if trouble is brewing.
We've got both American and Filipino SF forces all around the area too.
Heck, they stay at the house.
Go tell someone else your theories on muslim "deterministic analysis", Mr.
Logical Analysis.
I know for a fact you have no idea what you're talking about.
I'll go further. I look at naive, pollyanna types like you
and pity you and the gullible crowd your type tries to sway.
John Kerry had much the same naive view of the fanatical muslim world,
I think that fact scared a lot of people who figured they weren't as
eager to "dialogue" as he imagined they should be.
When it boils down, the majority didn't seem to trust Kerry's theories
in the real world.
The militant muslims loved this guy.
They'd love you too, Carl. You're the type of gullible fool
they rely on over here.
JS
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| | From: | * US * | | Subject: | Re: We Are All Torturers Now | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:28:05 -0500 |
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| On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:56:36 -0600, Bad.Guy@Pushing.Too.Far.Com (YoJimbo) wrote:
>...naive, pollyanna types like ...
You like to pretend Bush would be on your side.
You like to imagine torture would be appropriate.
You like to maim and murder innocents for crooks.
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:49:04 -0600, Bad.Guy@Pushing.Too.Far.Com (YoJimbo) wrote:
>... have to attempt, at least, to understand the situations
>these guys are in...
Your fuhrer Bush sent them where they don't belong,
and issued permission to torture and murder.
Have someone competent look that up for you.
They'll need to explain it slowly, in small words, and
repeat as necessary until you begin to understand.
>... have little
>idea ...
That's why you get duped too easily.
>...clueless.
Iraq was no threat.
>...fool.
Bush is loyal to Nazism, not the USA.
>... be this ignorant ...
You're being abused as a result.
>... idiot ...
You believe Bush speaks for God, too, don't you.
>... naive.
That's why you're being used to serve fascism, against
your own best interests.
>...War is hell....
If you learn about that you'll stop supporting those who
launch illegal invasions to profiteer on them.
You should also learn that "War is a Racket".
A real soldier is the one who could teach you that, if only
you'd muster the courage and intelligence to learn.
>... just whining, so ... *haven't* figured it out yet.
You're irrational with your hysteria, due to your cowardice.
Here's some more help:
http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
>... this is one of the most humane
>treatments of POWs you'll ever see in human history...
No, PollyAnna, it's not.
It's a war crime, with atrocities initiated from the fascist top.
>...didn't learn well enough.
>I'm ... as screwed up as the idea of war itself.
>...gleefully watch the carnage.
>... guilty too ...
Those of us who aren't cowards don't share your support
for war criminals.
>Many Iraqis feel ...
The vast majority of them want Bush gone yesterday.
They know what you should find out.
Go ask them.
>... have no idea what happening over there...
>I'm afraid ...
>JS
Get a grip.
There was no threat. You've been duped.
Your fearfulness/foolishness is no excuse for your support
of fascism or its crimes.
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| | From: | YoJimbo | | Subject: | Re: We Are All Torturers Now | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:43:47 -0600 |
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| In article , *US* says...
>
>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:56:36 -0600, Bad.Guy@Pushing.Too.Far.Com (YoJimbo) wrote:
>
>>...naive, pollyanna types like ...
>
>You like to pretend Bush would be on your side.
>
>You like to imagine torture would be appropriate.
>
>You like to maim and murder innocents for crooks.
I do?
Shut up, ya little dweeb.
Go back to these other groups cross-posting here; you're too wimpy to
be in a martial arts group. And take yer friends with ya.
JS
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| | From: | * US * | | Subject: | Re: We Are All Torturers Now | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:16:54 -0500 |
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| On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:43:47 -0600, Bad.Guy@Pushing.Too.Far.Com (YoJimbo) wrote:
>Shut up
If you were a real American, you'd value freedom of expression,
among other things.
>... too wimpy to
>be in a martial arts group...
>JS
You're too wimpy for newsgroups in general, you poor thing.
If you weren't a wimp, you'd not be a dupe for the Bush wimps.
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:56:36 -0600, Bad.Guy@Pushing.Too.Far.Com (YoJimbo) wrote:
>...naive, pollyanna types like ...
You like to pretend Bush would be on your side.
You like to imagine torture would be appropriate.
You like to maim and murder innocents for crooks.
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:49:04 -0600, Bad.Guy@Pushing.Too.Far.Com (YoJimbo) wrote:
>... have to attempt, at least, to understand the situations
>these guys are in...
Your fuhrer Bush sent them where they don't belong,
and issued permission to torture and murder.
Have someone competent look that up for you.
They'll need to explain it slowly, in small words, and
repeat as necessary until you begin to understand.
>... have little
>idea ...
That's why you get duped too easily.
>...clueless.
Iraq was no threat.
>...fool.
Bush is loyal to Nazism, not the USA.
>... be this ignorant ...
You're being abused as a result.
>... idiot ...
You believe Bush speaks for God, too, don't you.
>... naive.
That's why you're being used to serve fascism, against
your own best interests.
>...War is hell....
If you learn about that you'll stop supporting those who
launch illegal invasions to profiteer on them.
You should also learn that "War is a Racket".
A real soldier is the one who could teach you that, if only
you'd muster the courage and intelligence to learn.
>... just whining, so ... *haven't* figured it out yet.
You're irrational with your hysteria, due to your cowardice.
Here's some more help:
http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
>... this is one of the most humane
>treatments of POWs you'll ever see in human history...
No, PollyAnna, it's not.
It's a war crime, with atrocities initiated from the fascist top.
>...didn't learn well enough.
>I'm ... as screwed up as the idea of war itself.
>...gleefully watch the carnage.
>... guilty too ...
Those of us who aren't cowards don't share your support
for war criminals.
>Many Iraqis feel ...
The vast majority of them want Bush gone yesterday.
They know what you should find out.
Go ask them.
>... have no idea what happening over there...
>I'm afraid ...
>JS
Get a grip.
There was no threat. You've been duped.
Your fearfulness/foolishness is no excuse for your support
of fascism or its crimes.
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