Although there's no denying that BJJ is one of the best systems once on the
ground, I find that BJJ takedowns and takedown defenses are not as good as
other grappling arts such as wrestling, judo, and sambo.

For those of us who have been exposed to wrestling, we dump the pipe when we do
single leg takedowns. For bjj they just take the leg and try to drive you
down. They don't whizzer to counter takedown attempts. Their hip throws are
not as deep.

In MMA, BJJers have no problems taking down strikers; but against other
grapplers, they almost always end up on their back. Even in the gym, I almost
always get the top position with wrestling - unless I am outweighted by too
much. I do get submitted from their guard quite often; however, I almost always
dominate the takedowns. They don't defend well against underhooks, neck
clinches, arm drags, etc. Do pure BJJers without wrestling, sambo, or judo
background feel less skilled in takedowns when facing these other grapplers
from arts more devoted to takedowns?

Also on another note: In comparison to sambo, their leglocks are very
rudimentary. So even on the ground there are ways to improve on your BJJ
techniques.

From:	GreenDistantStar
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:59:47 GMT

"H8That" wrote in message
news:20050121030910.15036.00000099@mb-m21.aol.com...
> Although there's no denying that BJJ is one of the best systems once on
> the
> ground, I find that BJJ takedowns and takedown defenses are not as good as
> other grappling arts such as wrestling, judo, and sambo.

Maybe, maybe not.

>
> For those of us who have been exposed to wrestling, we dump the pipe when
> we do
> single leg takedowns. For bjj they just take the leg and try to drive you
> down. They don't whizzer to counter takedown attempts.

You can get pretty much the same results doing it the Brazilian way.

Their hip throws are
> not as deep.

Not true. A good hip throw is a good hip throw and it's taught essentially
the same way in Bjj as it is in judo.

>
> In MMA, BJJers have no problems taking down strikers; but against other
> grapplers, they almost always end up on their back.

That's often true because their their game does not stop when their back
hits the mat for any given period of time, which IS the case in judo and
wrestling

Even in the gym, I almost
> always get the top position with wrestling - unless I am outweighted by
> too
> much. I do get submitted from their guard quite often; however, I almost
> always
> dominate the takedowns.

That's usually what happens.

They don't defend well against underhooks, neck
> clinches, arm drags, etc.

Who you been rolling with?

Do pure BJJers without wrestling, sambo, or judo
> background feel less skilled in takedowns when facing these other
> grapplers
> from arts more devoted to takedowns?

It's certainly true in sports Bj that the guys who train wrestling and judo
can have an initial advantage. Our club trains almost exclusively (compared
to other clubs locallly) in wrestling takedowns, and in competition, it
shows.....our guys almost always get the takedown and intitial advantage,
but unlike wrestling, now the game has just started. I like to pull judo
throws and reaps for the same reason - it's generaly not expected and gets
me off to a good start, but no ippon I'm afraid.

So one might logically ask, do wrestlers feel less skilled when they make a
takedown and get choked out or arm-barred?

> Also on another note: In comparison to sambo, their leglocks are very
> rudimentary.

Sambo's cool to be sure, but many of its leg-locks are more reference
material than anything else, like many of Gene LeBell's moves...sure they
work but how often would you/could you use them?

So even on the ground there are ways to improve on your BJJ
> techniques.

The essence of Bjj has been osmotic, absorb and integrate what works and
reject what does not. The greater use of leglocks from sambo is a good
example.

You've raised a worthy grappling topic and one that just might generate some
interest.

GDS

From:	Badger_South
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 07:49:41 -0500

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:59:47 GMT, "GreenDistantStar"
wrote:

>> In MMA, BJJers have no problems taking down strikers; but against other
>> grapplers, they almost always end up on their back.
>
>That's often true because their their game does not stop when their back
>hits the mat for any given period of time, which IS the case in judo and
>wrestling
>
>> Even in the gym, I almost always get the top position with wrestling - unless
>> I am outweighted by too much. I do get submitted from their guard quite
>> often; however, I almost always dominate the takedowns.
>
>That's usually what happens.
>
>>They don't defend well against underhooks, neck
>> clinches, arm drags, etc.
>
>Who you been rolling with?

That's the crux - I think the point is a fair one - lots of very good
takedowns and the wrestlers are in their zone. It's to be expected they'd
dominate. The distinction should be made that the kind of takedowns that
wrestlers do are designed to give them good position to get into a pin. For
the BJJ guy, it's to get the fight on the ground. A lot of 'pure BJJ'
players start from the knees, don't do throws and don't do takedowns. It's
all good though - you don't need to do a takedown, you can just pull guard
- though a wrestling background and the ability to do throws, trips and
takedowns definitely adds depth to your game. If you want to get good at
this train with the wrestlers...

Where classic wrestlers are not as strong is in getting a sub - from what
I've seen - ymmv. BJJ focusses on getting the sub - a pin is not going to
end the fight, though wrestling moves can certainly be adapted easily.

>> Do pure BJJers without wrestling, sambo, or judo
>> background feel less skilled in takedowns when facing these other
>> grapplers from arts more devoted to takedowns?

How much, GDS, do BJJ-ers practice sprawling against good takedowns? Many
clubs that practice starting from the knees may not have a sprawl unless
they get it outside of class.

>It's certainly true in sports Bj that the guys who train wrestling and judo
>can have an initial advantage. Our club trains almost exclusively (compared
>to other clubs locallly) in wrestling takedowns, and in competition, it
>shows.....our guys almost always get the takedown and intitial advantage,
>but unlike wrestling, now the game has just started. I like to pull judo
>throws and reaps for the same reason - it's generaly not expected and gets
>me off to a good start, but no ippon I'm afraid.

When you see a good judo player doing throws in an MMA context (iow, not
against another judo player who is basically stalling) they look -very-
good, very skilled (not affiliated.):

http://www.truthincombat.com/video/JudoForBJJ_Promo.wmv

or here (scroll down)

http://video.truthincombat.com/videos.htm

>So one might logically ask, do wrestlers feel less skilled when they make a
>takedown and get choked out or arm-barred?
>
>> Also on another note: In comparison to sambo, their leglocks are very
>> rudimentary.
>
>Sambo's cool to be sure, but many of its leg-locks are more reference
>material than anything else, like many of Gene LeBell's moves...sure they
>work but how often would you/could you use them?

I like the way you put that. I was saying the same thing to Fraser in an
email - uh, not sure I had sent it yet.

Excerpt:
............................................
>Peter D came over yesterday and left me 2 Gracie books (1 self defense
>and the other called "the Gracie Way". And Gene Lebells big book of finishing
>holds. He also left me 6 video tapes of various BJJ stuff. I am swamped in
>MMA stuff. Heaven. I still have a Renzo Gracie instructional and the Gordo
>half guard series to get through.

Haha, cool. I'm not so sure about the Gene Lebell book - it's nice, sure if
you already know how to get into those holds, but AFAIK, they don't tell
you how to get there...sadly, mebee not as useful as it could be unless
you're one of his students.
............................................

You put it much better, with the use of the term 'indexing'. Cool.

>>So even on the ground there are ways to improve on your BJJ
>> techniques.
>
>The essence of Bjj has been osmotic, absorb and integrate what works and
>reject what does not. The greater use of leglocks from sambo is a good
>example.
>
>You've raised a worthy grappling topic and one that just might generate some
>interest.
>
>GDS

I don't now of any BJJ guys who have stuck/stayed in the past, but I do
acknowledge that many clubs do a relatively gentle 'in-house' pure BJJ;
however even those guys might have a stand up background, or might do some
bag work after class. Nevertheless, even pure BJJ at a college club level
is still developing important skills, ime.

-B

From:	Bryce
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:24:23 -0800

From:	Don Geddis
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:40:50 -0800

"Bryce" wrote on Fri, 21 Jan 2005:
> Where I was training BJJ, we would actually spend a fair amount of time
> doing judo takedowns and throws. My instructor also had a black belt in
> judo, however, so I don't know if this is typical in other BJJ gyms.

No, this is not typical at most BJJ schools.

-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis webmaster@bjj.org http://bjj.org/

From:	Fraser Johnston
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:10:57 +0800

From:	Badger_South
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:36:12 -0500

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:10:57 +0800, "Fraser Johnston"
wrote:

>> Also on another note: In comparison to sambo, their leglocks are very
>> rudimentary. So even on the ground there are ways to improve on your BJJ
>> techniques.
>
>Where I train BJJ we do wrestling and judo takedowns. Hell we do anything
>that works. If yellow bamboo worked for the takedown we would be doing
>that.
>
>Fraser

This is ideal, imo, and were I 30y.o. again, I'd be doing this. Now, it's
too hard on the body - I want to be training, not recovering from injuries
at age 50. Easy, 'from the knees' BJJ is fine for me. I have other
attributes and already have a decent takedown from my wrestling in the past
so I'm not doing too bad. ;-p

-B

From:	TomasDrgon at netscape.net
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	21 Jan 2005 07:15:08 -0800

Fraser Johnston wrote:
> "H8That" wrote in message
> news:20050121030910.15036.00000099@mb-m21.aol.com...

snip

>
> Where I train BJJ we do wrestling and judo takedowns. Hell we do
anything
> that works. If yellow bamboo worked for the takedown we would be
doing
> that.
>
> Fraser

I'd wait with implementing the YB into your BJJ till after the
30-th:)))

Tomas

From:	Fraser Johnston
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:47:06 +0800

wrote in message
news:1106320508.340080.266670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Fraser Johnston wrote:
>> "H8That" wrote in message
>> news:20050121030910.15036.00000099@mb-m21.aol.com...
>
> snip
>
>>
>> Where I train BJJ we do wrestling and judo takedowns. Hell we do
> anything
>> that works. If yellow bamboo worked for the takedown we would be
> doing
>> that.
>>
>> Fraser
>
> I'd wait with implementing the YB into your BJJ till after the
> 30-th:)))
>

I figure after next Sunday the whole issue will be done and dusted. All you
guys will have to do is sit back and watch the video. Wearing a nappy
because you'll probably piss yourselves laughing.

Fraser

From:	Don Geddis
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:47:24 -0800

h8that@aol.com (H8That) wrote on 21 Jan 2005 08:0:
> Although there's no denying that BJJ is one of the best systems once on the
> ground, I find that BJJ takedowns and takedown defenses are not as good as
> other grappling arts such as wrestling, judo, and sambo.

BJJ spends maybe 5-10% of its training time on takedowns. Not a surprise
that arts which specialize in it (75-95%) result in fighters with better
takedowns.

> In MMA, BJJers have no problems taking down strikers; but against other
> grapplers, they almost always end up on their back.

Probably true.

> Even in the gym, I almost always get the top position with wrestling -
> unless I am outweighted by too much. I do get submitted from their guard
> quite often; however, I almost always dominate the takedowns.

What do you think of this tradeoff? Surely your BJJ opponents are perfectly
happy to wind up in the bottom position, if they can tap you "quite often"
from there.

Why do you think this tradeoff is good for you? It's clear that BJJ looked
at the situation, and decided to specialize in submission instead of takedowns.
Submissions end the fight; takedowns don't.

Do you disagree? How can you possibly be happy at your performance if you
win the takedown, but then tap every time? Surely you must agree that you've
spent too much time training takedowns, and not enough training submissions.

> They don't defend well against underhooks, neck clinches, arm drags, etc.
> Do pure BJJers without wrestling, sambo, or judo background feel less
> skilled in takedowns when facing these other grapplers from arts more
> devoted to takedowns?

Sure, but BJJ doesn't really have a special twist on takedowns. Most
competitive BJJ folks who need good takedown skills cross train in wrestling
(or Judo). There really isn't much of a separate "BJJ takedown" style which
is somehow different from wrestling or Judo.

-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis webmaster@bjj.org http://bjj.org/

From:	Frank Benn
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:22:26 GMT

"Don Geddis" wrote in message
news:87oefifwlf.fsf@sidious.geddis.org...
>
> What do you think of this tradeoff? Surely your BJJ opponents are
> perfectly
> happy to wind up in the bottom position, if they can tap you "quite often"
> from there.
>
> Why do you think this tradeoff is good for you? It's clear that BJJ
> looked
> at the situation, and decided to specialize in submission instead of
> takedowns.
> Submissions end the fight; takedowns don't.
>
> Do you disagree? How can you possibly be happy at your performance if you
> win the takedown, but then tap every time? Surely you must agree that
> you've
> spent too much time training takedowns, and not enough training
> submissions.

There is another angle to this - one which I've seen play out time and time
again.

As far as actual fighting goes, if the BJJ fighter *needs* the fight to go
to the ground and he's facing an opponent who can wrestle -- even at a
mediocre level -- he won't tend to get him down. The fight between Don Frye
and Amaury Bitetti is a good example. There are many others.

Some in BJJ train in wrestling, but the vast majority do not.
Pragmatically, one could say they don't really need great takedown skills
against the average person. This is true. But the ones who start from
their knees every match -- and in BJJ they are the vast majority -- don't
even have poor takedown skills. It would be more accurate to call them
nonexistent.

What's happening now is there are guys with good takedowns -- good
wrestling -- who also pass and have solid defense inside the guard. The guy
who flops to his back and pulls guard doesn't get the finish, but ends up
under side control or half-guard getting pounded. Or ground and pound from
the guard.

Pulling guard isn't the magic shield many once thought it was. The most
notable examples where jumping to guard worked, it turns out, were actually
technical mismatches. I spend a LOT of time working on my guard, and it's a
strength of mine, but giving up the takedown willfully and pulling guard can
have its price.

No one is saying, for instance, that Fabio Gurgel was wrong to pull guard
against Mark Kerr. Some opponents make it inevitable. But it still doesn't
explain or justify the degree to which most BJJ schools neglect the area.

Frank Benn
IFA Academy
Austin, Texas

From:	Adam
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:48:59 -0600

We do 30 to 45 minutes of wrestling takedowns (and defenses) every class.
Singles, doubles, ankle picks, clinches, pummeling, head control. We are
encouraged to start from standing any time mat space permits.

But I know what you're saying about when you face an opponant who leaves
you little choice. One of my main training partners is a former high
school champ wrestler with 30 pounds, 10 less years and a lot of strength
on me as an advantage. He's got as much BJJ experience as me -although I
am the more technical- plus an extra 5 years of wrestling grappling. I
can't meet him on an even field in the takedown arena and I won't fool
myself into thinking I can.

So, most of the time when we tie up or he starts a shot I do my best to
sprawl, but most of the times I'm late with it so I have to try and drag
him into my guard or lately as is the case, work for something from open or
1/2 guard (leglock) as he is getting very good at avoiding my closed guard
(must be tired of all those triangles heh). Even if I sweep him from open
guard he's much too fast for me to close the gap on and get dominant
position. We just end up back at neutral. He's almost unsweepable from
the 1/2. Awesome base.

He keeps saying what I'm doing is a "bad habit" and I see his point, if I
did it with everyone. But it's just with him. To me it seems a better
option than getting thrown hard and then mashed under side control.

YMMV.

>There is another angle to this - one which I've seen play out time and
>time again.
>
>As far as actual fighting goes, if the BJJ fighter *needs* the fight to
>go to the ground and he's facing an opponent who can wrestle -- even at
>a mediocre level -- he won't tend to get him down. The fight between
>Don Frye and Amaury Bitetti is a good example. There are many others.
>
>Some in BJJ train in wrestling, but the vast majority do not.
>Pragmatically, one could say they don't really need great takedown
>skills against the average person. This is true. But the ones who
>start from their knees every match -- and in BJJ they are the vast
>majority -- don't even have poor takedown skills. It would be more
>accurate to call them nonexistent.
>
>What's happening now is there are guys with good takedowns -- good
>wrestling -- who also pass and have solid defense inside the guard. The
>guy who flops to his back and pulls guard doesn't get the finish, but
>ends up under side control or half-guard getting pounded. Or ground and
>pound from the guard.
>
>Pulling guard isn't the magic shield many once thought it was. The most
>notable examples where jumping to guard worked, it turns out, were
>actually technical mismatches. I spend a LOT of time working on my
>guard, and it's a strength of mine, but giving up the takedown willfully
>and pulling guard can have its price.
>
>No one is saying, for instance, that Fabio Gurgel was wrong to pull
>guard against Mark Kerr. Some opponents make it inevitable. But it
>still doesn't explain or justify the degree to which most BJJ schools
>neglect the area.
>
>Frank Benn
>IFA Academy
>Austin, Texas
>
>
>
>

From:	Frank Benn
Subject:	Re: BJJ - weaker in takedowns???
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:58:34 GMT

What's happening now is that most students are becoming carbon copies of
their instructors, as far as background and skill set.

If you've got a guy who started grappling a few years ago who now teaches,
and BJJ is all he's ever done, then he can't pass on any takedown skills to
his students because he simply doesn't have them. What he has learned is
what he teaches.

Add to that the fact that most people who train as a hobby don't even *want*
to train in takedowns, or striking -- either because of fear of injury, lack
of athleticism, limited space, or just because it's "too hard" -- and in the
long run what has happened to virtually every martial art will also happen
to BJJ.

In order to grow and gain wider acceptance, instructors will make
compromises. It will become a specialized subset of what it originally was,
what the majority finds "palatable". People will only practice the parts of
it that they "like". It will become an abstract game based more and more on
artificial goals and constraints.

Interesting how that happens to every martial art once it becomes
commercially viable. It ends up packaged and sold in a happy meal box.
Made into something more "easy" and "fun". Civilized.

But it gets better. Watch what happens as more and more karate and tkd
schools offer "Grappling Programs".

Frank Benn
IFA Academy
Austin, Texas

"Adam" wrote in message
news:95E5DF389karlcsueduco@216.196.97.136...
> We do 30 to 45 minutes of wrestling takedowns (and defenses) every class.
> Singles, doubles, ankle picks, clinches, pummeling, head control. We are
> encouraged to start from standing any time mat space permits.
>
> But I know what you're saying about when you face an opponant who leaves
> you little choice. One of my main training partners is a former high
> school champ wrestler with 30 pounds, 10 less years and a lot of strength
> on me as an advantage. He's got as much BJJ experience as me -although I
> am the more technical- plus an extra 5 years of wrestling grappling. I
> can't meet him on an even field in the takedown arena and I won't fool
> myself into thinking I can.
>
> So, most of the time when we tie up or he starts a shot I do my best to
> sprawl, but most of the times I'm late with it so I have to try and drag
> him into my guard or lately as is the case, work for something from open
> or
> 1/2 guard (leglock) as he is getting very good at avoiding my closed guard
> (must be tired of all those triangles heh). Even if I sweep him from open
> guard he's much too fast for me to close the gap on and get dominant
> position. We just end up back at neutral. He's almost unsweepable from
> the 1/2. Awesome base.
>
> He keeps saying what I'm doing is a "bad habit" and I see his point, if I
> did it with everyone. But it's just with him. To me it seems a better
> option than getting thrown hard and then mashed under side control.
>
> YMMV.
>
>>There is another angle to this - one which I've seen play out time and
>>time again.
>>
>>As far as actual fighting goes, if the BJJ fighter *needs* the fight to
>>go to the ground and he's facing an opponent who can wrestle -- even at
>>a mediocre level -- he won't tend to get him down. The fight between
>>Don Frye and Amaury Bitetti is a good example. There are many others.
>>
>>Some in BJJ train in wrestling, but the vast majority do not.
>>Pragmatically, one could say they don't really need great takedown
>>skills against the average person. This is true. But the ones who
>>start from their knees every match -- and in BJJ they are the vast
>>majority -- don't even have poor takedown skills. It would be more
>>accurate to call them nonexistent.
>>
>>What's happening now is there are guys with good takedowns -- good
>>wrestling -- who also pass and have solid defense inside the guard. The
>>guy who flops to his back and pulls guard doesn't get the finish, but
>>ends up under side control or half-guard getting pounded. Or ground and
>>pound from the guard.
>>
>>Pulling guard isn't the magic shield many once thought it was. The most
>>notable examples where jumping to guard worked, it turns out, were
>>actually technical mismatches. I spend a LOT of time working on my
>>guard, and it's a strength of mine, but giving up the takedown willfully
>>and pulling guard can have its price.
>>
>>No one is saying, for instance, that Fabio Gurgel was wrong to pull
>>guard against Mark Kerr. Some opponents make it inevitable. But it
>>still doesn't explain or justify the degree to which most BJJ schools
>>neglect the area.
>>
>>Frank Benn
>>IFA Academy
>>Austin, Texas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>