>From the article:

"The only places that I have felt equality, inclusion and respect while
topless has been in women-only spaces. As soon as men are introduced,
some women begin to cater to the men, some men become lecherous pigs
claiming ownership of our breasts against our wills, and it all
degrades...fast."
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050119101603517

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	21 Jan 2005 12:06:45 -0800

Super_Nudist@fastermail.com wrote:
> Max Says:
> The fact is that at least Paradise Lake is promoted by the nudist
> community. So this proves that the nudist movement can't even
separate
> non-ualized nudism from ualized nudism.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> So you make that assumption, based on one resort, huh? FWIW, Paradise
> Lakes has a kind of a y reputation, and yes ual activity does
> sometimes take place there (even though it's *theoretically* frowned
> upon.) but it's not as if the place is one giant orgy (at least not
> before late at night anyway.)
> But, you still didn't answer my questions.
>
> Super Nudist

I am just saying that nudist organizations advertise for this resort
instead of separating themselves from any association with it.

Which proves that nudists can't separate from nudity irregardless
of all their claims that they can.

From:	Breanainn
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:41:35 GMT

On 20 Jan 2005 16:24:12 -0800, "Max Jefferson"
wrote:

>>From the article:
>
>"The only places that I have felt equality, inclusion and respect while
>topless has been in women-only spaces. As soon as men are introduced,
>some women begin to cater to the men, some men become lecherous pigs
>claiming ownership of our breasts against our wills, and it all
>degrades...fast."
>http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050119101603517

Max,

When you quote an article, don't just use the part that agrees with
your particular mind-set.

That part may show the problem she has with people like you and Jonz
in a group setting, but this is how she feels overall about nudity -
from the same article

"I have no problem with nudity or toplessness in groups. I grew up in
a clothing optional environment, and I have pretty healthy body
esteem, believing all body types are beautiful, so I am not hesitant
to go topless, or even naked, due to the bodily exposure."

Breanainn

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	22 Jan 2005 00:28:30 -0800

Dario Western wrote:
> Max,
>So, you
> are likening men who are pygmies, Hindu Brahmins, and Hawaiian
dancers with
> white trailer trash American rednecks?

No but I am likening males who jog in public topless (unless they are
at a beach or such) with white trailer trash American rednecks.

Also if they just wear a white undershirt to cover their top. Yuck.

Next time you see someone shirtless you tell me if you don't think they
look 'trailer trashy' (regardless of their skin color). And again, I am
not talking about at the beach and situations like that.

If you are honest about your personal evaluation of these people you
would agree with me that being shirtless is trashy. And having women
go around topless would only make the situation worst.

From:	Richard C.
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:16:01 -0800

X-No-archive: yes

"Max Jefferson" wrote in message
news:1106382510.266337.253400@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dario Western wrote:
>> Max,
>>So, you
>> are likening men who are pygmies, Hindu Brahmins, and Hawaiian
> dancers with
>> white trailer trash American rednecks?
>
> No but I am likening males who jog in public topless (unless they are
> at a beach or such) with white trailer trash American rednecks.
>
> Also if they just wear a white undershirt to cover their top. Yuck.
>
> Next time you see someone shirtless you tell me if you don't think they
> look 'trailer trashy' (regardless of their skin color). And again, I am
> not talking about at the beach and situations like that.
>
> If you are honest about your personal evaluation of these people you
> would agree with me that being shirtless is trashy. And having women
> go around topless would only make the situation worst.
>
================================
Once again, YOUR thinking is typical of "white trash" thinking.

The naked body is never "trashy".

I have to go soon and get ready to entertain about 20 naked people in our
home for dinner and a movie.
Not one will look "trashy" as they will all be totally nude!
==================================

From:	Ued
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:35:25 -0500

In article <41f2db68$0$27430$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, post-
age@spamcop.net says...
>
> The naked body is never "trashy".
>
> I have to go soon and get ready to entertain about 20 naked people in our
> home for dinner and a movie.
> Not one will look "trashy" as they will all be totally nude!

The people with tattoos will look trashy. They always do.

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	22 Jan 2005 19:14:08 -0800

Richard C. wrote:
> ================================
>
> The naked body is never "trashy".
>
> I have to go soon and get ready to entertain about 20 naked people in
our
> home for dinner and a movie.
> Not one will look "trashy" as they will all be totally nude!
> ==================================
But men who go shirtless, we can at least agree that is trashy.

From:	Richard C.
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:37:52 -0800

X-No-archive: yes

"Max Jefferson" wrote in message
news:1106450048.623129.200900@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Richard C. wrote:
>> ================================
>>
>> The naked body is never "trashy".
>>
>> I have to go soon and get ready to entertain about 20 naked people in
> our
>> home for dinner and a movie.
>> Not one will look "trashy" as they will all be totally nude!
>> ==================================
> But men who go shirtless, we can at least agree that is trashy.
>
================================
No.............actually we cannot agree.
I do not think men or women look trashy when shirtless.
==================================

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	22 Jan 2005 19:17:46 -0800

Marv Frandsen wrote:

> Naturism/nudism contextualizes uality so that arousal is no longer

> automatically triggered by nudity as such.

If this is true then it is so sad. I don't know why any person would
want to remove that pleasure from their lives.

From:	Marv Frandsen
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:39:28 GMT

Interesting and good debate.

A rambling response -

Speaking from the male side, my experience is that non-ual mixed
gender nudity is very possible and is in fact our natural state. Real
naturist and nudist venues do this all the time. And, psychologists
have studied this in nudist and naturist venues and found the same effect.

Naturism/nudism contextualizes uality so that arousal is no longer
automatically triggered by nudity as such. As a result of
contextualization male-female relationships are normalized and
naturalized to be more context (relationship) oriented rather than
object oriented (e.g. male pavlovian reaction to female nudity).

Yes, it happens all the time and is not an exotic or impossible
phenomenon. In fact this is our natural state as male human beings.
The hyper-ual clothing compulsory culture of fear, shame, female
objectification and resulting ual exploitation is not normal or
healthy. We often forget that our western culture has not been the norm
across human history.

As a self experiment I've had the occasion to to attend adult
entertainment nude dancing, including with other naturist friends
including males. It's very interesting to observe the difference in
male naturist reactions to that of other males, particularly
international males from cultures more repressive than our own. They
are worlds apart.

We males can free ourselves from the dominant cultural myths and see
mindless ual exploitation for the stupidity it is - the experience
actually becomes a ual turn-off and holds no attraction for us.

I've heard many people express the fear that common nudity will be
deualizing. It is not. However common nudity does change the mode
of male (and female) uality to a more natural state. Once you are
there the old object oriented mode is just a silly perversion to be left
behind with the rest of the mistakes and myths of childhood. The old
way is a truncation of uality, not an extension or enhancement as touted.

The problem nudists face is that of a minority island of sane culture
embedded within a larger dysfunctional culture that has no understanding
of sanity and cannot compute sanity because it is outside of their
experience. Currently we attain a tenuous social stability where lines
are formally (wall around the nudist camp with rules) or informally
(traditional naturist beach) drawn so that a cohesive social structure
can form around a new nucleus of naturist/nudist perspectives and
values. However the smaller the minority, the more difficult it is to
maintain social lines and social cohesion.

Anderberg faces the obstacle of belonging to a very small and transient
social island that has not reached critical mass where better social
norms have stability. In particular males have not yet been socialized
and socialized males have not yet been incorporated into the social
group. As a result Anderberg faces constant values intrusions by
unsocialized males and females who foolishly sell out to majority
culture inducements.

The question of how to change a dysfunctional aspect of majority culture
is very interesting. Reformers against foot binding in Chinese culture
and slavery in Britain faced similar obstacles, where entire social
systems and economies were founded on extremely destructive values and
behaviors. The people of their time could not comprehend how life could
function any other way. Now the old ways seem uncomprehensibly foreign
and are seen for being the anti-human perversions that they were.

Chinese reformers succeeded by forming clusters throughout the country
of reform-minded families who promised that sons would marry daughters
with unbound feet. This social island of "socialized" males provided
the opportunity for females (actually, their mothers) to take the huge
economic and social risk of not mutilating female feet to meet ual
and economic objectification demands by the majority culture. (Demands
that then, as now, were often enforced not by males but by females
seeking to do the socially "proper" thing as they understood it.)

In Taiwan in the late 1970's I observed the last remnants of this
practice in older women with bound feet. The mutilation is pretty
pitiful in its effects. Yet Chinese society once viewed natural unbound
female feet with at least as great a horror and prurience as today's
culture views the unclothed female breast, and similarly created
bullshit myths and harassment mechanisms to shore up the majority
viewpoint and herd females into compliance.

One last ramble - the ualized nudist venues are a concern to most of
the community precisely because they fuzzify the boundaries between
minority and majority cultures in a way that injects substantial
majority perversions inward across the social boundary rather than
purely evangelizing the minority sanity outward. The lure of course is
money for the operators, and a brief if unhealthy relief for the legions
of deprived and unsocialized people who are desperate to pay for a
respite from what they are taught is "normal". It remains to be seen
how these values defectors will affect the overall course of nudism, or
even in the end which way cultural change will flow from these exchanges
across the social boundary lines.

For the Chinese, the opportunity for the larger culture to opt in to
sanity eventually overwhelmed the inevitable defections and cave-ins to
majority values, rewards and punishments.

Hopefully in time the female topfree issue will follow a similar path to
a better way of freedom and life for all genders.

-- Marv Frandsen

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	20 Jan 2005 22:25:49 -0800

Breanainn wrote:
> On 20 Jan 2005 16:24:12 -0800, "Max Jefferson"
> wrote:
>
> >>From the article:
> >
> >"The only places that I have felt equality, inclusion and respect
while
> >topless has been in women-only spaces. As soon as men are
introduced,
> >some women begin to cater to the men, some men become lecherous pigs
> >claiming ownership of our breasts against our wills, and it all
> >degrades...fast."
> >http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050119101603517
>
> Max,
>
> When you quote an article, don't just use the part that agrees with
> your particular mind-set.
>
> That part may show the problem she has with people like you and Jonz
> in a group setting, but this is how she feels overall about nudity -
> from the same article
>
> "I have no problem with nudity or toplessness in groups. I grew up in
> a clothing optional environment, and I have pretty healthy body
> esteem, believing all body types are beautiful, so I am not hesitant
> to go topless, or even naked, due to the bodily exposure."
>
> Breanainn

She believes exactly what I have been saying. She doesn't have a
problem with going naked as a result of some kind of internal feeling
of shame. She has a problem going naked (or topless) because of the
responses she gets from the opposite .

I agree. I would have no problem with being nude except that when
adults are together naked it is most always ual. They might call it
"sensual" but what they mean is that it is ual. Only little children
can go around innocently naked because they know not of the
relationship of to nudity.

Nudism is an ideal that is impractical in the real world. That is what
she said in this article. Even though going topless in Santa Cruz is
legal few do so because of the response they get. At the Oregon County
Fair it is also legal for all women to go topless as well, but the
only women who do are skinny ones who want to please men.

So while it may be possible to disassociate and nudity (I don't
know why one would want to since it increases the ual experience
when you only see women naked rarely) it isn't possible for all people
to do so. And as long as you have people who don't, you will not able
to have non-seuxalized nudism.

So I quote fromt the end of the article. "The women are as guilty of
playing into all this as the men are. Women get power off of the ual
attention, there is no denying it. And we all know that women are not
morally superior to men. I am not letting men off that easy. It is not
men or women, but perhaps the interplay between the two, that is
causing the problem."

Non-ualized nudism as protrayed by nudists just isn't possible
between adults. Sexuality will always be in the background. The
nudists even admit it though they use the euphemism "sensuality" when
they do.

From:	AridZonaGal
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	22 Jan 2005 21:33:21 GMT

>She believes exactly what I have been saying. She doesn't have a
>problem with going naked as a result of some kind of internal feeling
>of shame. She has a problem going naked (or topless) because of the
>responses she gets from the opposite .
>
>I agree. I would have no problem with being nude except that when
>adults are together naked it is most always ual. They might call it
>"sensual" but what they mean is that it is ual. Only little children
>can go around innocently naked because they know not of the
>relationship of to nudity.
>
>Nudism is an ideal that is impractical in the real world. That is what
>she said in this article. Even though going topless in Santa Cruz is
>legal few do so because of the response they get. At the Oregon County
>Fair it is also legal for all women to go topless as well, but the
>only women who do are skinny ones who want to please men.
>
>So while it may be possible to disassociate and nudity (I don't
>know why one would want to since it increases the ual experience
>when you only see women naked rarely) it isn't possible for all people
>to do so. And as long as you have people who don't, you will not able
>to have non-seuxalized nudism.
>
>So I quote fromt the end of the article. "The women are as guilty of
>playing into all this as the men are. Women get power off of the ual
>attention, there is no denying it. And we all know that women are not
>morally superior to men. I am not letting men off that easy. It is not
>men or women, but perhaps the interplay between the two, that is
>causing the problem."
>
>Non-ualized nudism as protrayed by nudists just isn't possible
>between adults. Sexuality will always be in the background. The
>nudists even admit it though they use the euphemism "sensuality" when
>they do.
>
>
I don't think that all nudists feel sensual in the way you define it when
they are nude. But certainly more do than some would admit here. Being naked
can be very y.
DesertDwellingGal

From:	El Dorado Hot Springs
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 05:21:05 GMT

We don't know who wrote this, but...

> Only little children
> >can go around innocently naked because they know not of the
> >relationship of to nudity.

Not true at all. If one relates to nudity (or nudity to ), that's an
artificial perception, real, perhaps, to the perceiver, not still artificial
and not reality based.

> >Nudism is an ideal that is impractical in the real world.

In the world here, our little 8 acres, it's eminently practical when it's
warm enough, which is most of the time.

> >So while it may be possible to disassociate and nudity (I don't
> >know why one would want to since it increases the ual experience
> >when you only see women naked rarely)

Oh, wow! Do you ever have a lot to learn!

Camilla Van Sickle & Bill Pennington

From:	Bert Clanton
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 07:37:58 -0800

In article <1106288749.832966.46340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Max Jefferson" wrote:

>
> She believes exactly what I have been saying. She doesn't have a
> problem with going naked as a result of some kind of internal feeling
> of shame. She has a problem going naked (or topless) because of the
> responses she gets from the opposite .
>

If I were a woman, and I got that same response from men when I went
topfree or nude, I'd feel exactly as she felt. But the relevant question
here is, "Would men treat her that way at any ordinary nudist resort?"
And the answer is, "No, they would not." If you're going to write about
nudism, you should write about nudism as it really exists. The author of
the article wasn't writing about nudism. She was writing about the
response of men still brainwashed by a culture of ism and shame and
titillation. Nudism is a subculture which for the most part has moved
beyond ism and shame and titillation.

Once more, I surmise from what you write that you have no actual
experience with nudism, and so are writing from a purely theoretical
perspective--which happens to be factually mistaken.

> I agree. I would have no problem with being nude except that when
> adults are together naked it is most always ual. They might call it
> "sensual" but what they mean is that it is ual. Only little children
> can go around innocently naked because they know not of the
> relationship of to nudity.
>

You have assumed the difficult task of trying to persuade people who
write from actual personal experience that your contrary theoretical
perspective is correct, and that their actual life-experiences are
somehow deluded. You won't succeed.

> Nudism is an ideal that is impractical in the real world. That is what
> she said in this article. Even though going topless in Santa Cruz is
> legal few do so because of the response they get. At the Oregon County
> Fair it is also legal for all women to go topless as well, but the
> only women who do are skinny ones who want to please men.
>

She was in nude in a textile environment. That textile environment, as I
wrote above, is ist, shame-obsessed, and given to titillation. She
wasn't even writing about nudism as it is practiced by nudists.

> So while it may be possible to disassociate and nudity (I don't
> know why one would want to since it increases the ual experience
> when you only see women naked rarely) it isn't possible for all people
> to do so. And as long as you have people who don't, you will not able
> to have non-seuxalized nudism.
>

There's in-your-face public nudity in a textile environment, and there's
nudism as it is actually practiced. The resolution of the problem of
ism that she experienced lies in the adoption of a shamefree
non-ist non-titillative cultural environment.

I wouldn't describe my own feelings about nude women as "dissociation".
For me, a y female body is y whether the woman is naked or
clothed. As I've written before, I never got spayed or neutered as a
requirement for admission to a nudist resort. My remaining a gentleman
in my association with nudist women was sufficient.

> So I quote fromt the end of the article. "The women are as guilty of
> playing into all this as the men are. Women get power off of the ual
> attention, there is no denying it. And we all know that women are not
> morally superior to men. I am not letting men off that easy. It is not
> men or women, but perhaps the interplay between the two, that is
> causing the problem."
>

That simply doesn't describe the way things went down at any nudist
resort that I was ever at. I've just never seen the kind of interplay
that you're describing at any nudist venue I've ever been at.

> Non-ualized nudism as protrayed by nudists just isn't possible
> between adults. Sexuality will always be in the background. The
> nudists even admit it though they use the euphemism "sensuality" when
> they do.
>

Sexuality is always in the background *everywhere*! Live with it!

The important question is, "Does express itself in a nudist
environment in a way that women find offensive?" And the answer is "No!"

And my answer comes not from theoretical speculation, but from personal
observation over several decades.

I'd suggest that before you pontificate any further about what nudism is
like, you visit at least one nudist resort. My guess is that you're far
more likely to be bored by what goes on there than offended by it.

Best wishes,
Bert

From:	Richard C.
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:58:57 -0800

X-No-archive: yes

"Bert Clanton" wrote in message
news:eubiotist-32A9BE.07375821012005@news.isp.giganews.com...
> In article <1106288749.832966.46340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> "Max Jefferson" wrote:
>
>
>>
>> She believes exactly what I have been saying. She doesn't have a
>> problem with going naked as a result of some kind of internal feeling
>> of shame. She has a problem going naked (or topless) because of the
>> responses she gets from the opposite .
>>
>
> If I were a woman, and I got that same response from men when I went
> topfree or nude, I'd feel exactly as she felt. But the relevant question
> here is, "Would men treat her that way at any ordinary nudist resort?"
> And the answer is, "No, they would not." If you're going to write about
> nudism, you should write about nudism as it really exists. The author of
> the article wasn't writing about nudism. She was writing about the
> response of men still brainwashed by a culture of ism and shame and
> titillation. Nudism is a subculture which for the most part has moved
> beyond ism and shame and titillation.
>
> Once more, I surmise from what you write that you have no actual
> experience with nudism, and so are writing from a purely theoretical
> perspective--which happens to be factually mistaken.
>
>> I agree. I would have no problem with being nude except that when
>> adults are together naked it is most always ual. They might call it
>> "sensual" but what they mean is that it is ual. Only little children
>> can go around innocently naked because they know not of the
>> relationship of to nudity.
>>
>
> You have assumed the difficult task of trying to persuade people who
> write from actual personal experience that your contrary theoretical
> perspective is correct, and that their actual life-experiences are
> somehow deluded. You won't succeed.
>
>> Nudism is an ideal that is impractical in the real world. That is what
>> she said in this article. Even though going topless in Santa Cruz is
>> legal few do so because of the response they get. At the Oregon County
>> Fair it is also legal for all women to go topless as well, but the
>> only women who do are skinny ones who want to please men.
>>
>
> She was in nude in a textile environment. That textile environment, as I
> wrote above, is ist, shame-obsessed, and given to titillation. She
> wasn't even writing about nudism as it is practiced by nudists.
>
>> So while it may be possible to disassociate and nudity (I don't
>> know why one would want to since it increases the ual experience
>> when you only see women naked rarely) it isn't possible for all people
>> to do so. And as long as you have people who don't, you will not able
>> to have non-seuxalized nudism.
>>
>
> There's in-your-face public nudity in a textile environment, and there's
> nudism as it is actually practiced. The resolution of the problem of
> ism that she experienced lies in the adoption of a shamefree
> non-ist non-titillative cultural environment.
>
> I wouldn't describe my own feelings about nude women as "dissociation".
> For me, a y female body is y whether the woman is naked or
> clothed. As I've written before, I never got spayed or neutered as a
> requirement for admission to a nudist resort. My remaining a gentleman
> in my association with nudist women was sufficient.
>
>> So I quote fromt the end of the article. "The women are as guilty of
>> playing into all this as the men are. Women get power off of the ual
>> attention, there is no denying it. And we all know that women are not
>> morally superior to men. I am not letting men off that easy. It is not
>> men or women, but perhaps the interplay between the two, that is
>> causing the problem."
>>
>
> That simply doesn't describe the way things went down at any nudist
> resort that I was ever at. I've just never seen the kind of interplay
> that you're describing at any nudist venue I've ever been at.
>
>> Non-ualized nudism as protrayed by nudists just isn't possible
>> between adults. Sexuality will always be in the background. The
>> nudists even admit it though they use the euphemism "sensuality" when
>> they do.
>>
>
> Sexuality is always in the background *everywhere*! Live with it!
>
> The important question is, "Does express itself in a nudist
> environment in a way that women find offensive?" And the answer is "No!"
>
> And my answer comes not from theoretical speculation, but from personal
> observation over several decades.
>
> I'd suggest that before you pontificate any further about what nudism is
> like, you visit at least one nudist resort. My guess is that you're far
> more likely to be bored by what goes on there than offended by it.
>
> Best wishes,
> Bert
==========================
Great post, Bert!

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	22 Jan 2005 19:20:44 -0800

Marv Frandsen wrote:

> Speaking from the male side, my experience is that non-ual mixed
> gender nudity is very possible and is in fact our natural state.

That isn't what Aridzona Gal said. She says that her experience has
been that she has found that most nudists that she and most nudists she
has met finds being naked y.

I appreciate her honesty.

From:	Super_Nudist at fastermail.com
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	21 Jan 2005 11:38:34 -0800

Max: The equality issues that this writer brings up misses the mark.
First
of all I am against males being topless in public (unless it is at a
beach or swimming). It is so tacky, low class, white trashy for a lack
of a better word.

Super Nudist: What if it's hot outside? What if it just feels more
comfortable? It's "low class", why? Because the majority doesn't do it.
(Maybe you've been listening to Johnzeee too much.)

Max:But that is beside the point. The fact is that a woman's breast is
different than any males (even the big fat males).

Super Nudist: And your point is??????? Male's chests are different
than female breasts (same thing in reverse), so someone could use this
same flawed argument to say that *male* chests should be covered but
not *female* breasts.

Max: It reacts to ual
stimulus.

Super Nudist:: Yeah, but Male chests do also. (I know mine do!)

Max: It is different in form and function than what males have.

Super Nudist: Yeah, and male chests are different in form and function
than what females have. So again, what's your point? (Actually, in rare
cases some male nipples have lactated.)

Max: And
nature can be very ist and inequal at times.

Super Nudist: The word is unequal max, not inequal! Anyway, unequal
perhaps, but nature can't be ist. Nature isn't ist, just some
people are . Nature doesn't have the capability to think which is
required for someone to be ist. Nature is not a someone, nature is a
something. (You do know that don't you?)
Super Nudist
(Doing my part to educate Max)

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	22 Jan 2005 00:12:04 -0800

Dario Western wrote:
> Max,
>
> > > The equality issues that this writer brings up misses the mark.
First
> > > of all I am against males being topless in public (unless it is
at a
> > > beach or swimming). It is so tacky, low class, white trashy for a
lack
> > > of a better word.
>
> You are one freaking dead set idiot. What about NON-WHITE men who go
> topless in public for religious ceremonial purposes for instance?!
So, you
> are likening men who are pygmies, Hindu Brahmins, and Hawaiian
dancers with
> white trailer trash American rednecks? Think before you speak
sometimes, or
> just shut up and go away. You think that it's more healthier for men
to
> wear thick 3 piece suits in the middle of summer and sweating like
mad?

Please, I was talking about in an American context. Most people know
what I mean by talking about trailer trash or "white trash'. I wasn't
talking about Hindu Brahnmins, pymgies or even Hawaiian dancers (who
yes I know are Americans). I wasn't talking about men at beaches nor
was I talking about men swimming.

What I was talking about was men in most other contexts. Walking or
Jogging down the street, such stuff like that.

And by using the word "white trash" I wasn't even only talking about
white males. The better word would be "trailer parkish" as that doesn't
denote any race or skin color.

Again, I am talking about commonly in America. Not in religious
celemonies. Not at the beach. In every day life males shouldn't go
around topless in public. Even if it is really hot they should have the
decency to put on a shirt. Most American males do, even when it is hot.

From:	Richard C.
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:13:04 -0800

X-No-archive: yes

"Max Jefferson" wrote in message
news:1106381524.192452.220190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Please, I was talking about in an American context. Most people know
> what I mean by talking about trailer trash or "white trash'. I wasn't
> talking about Hindu Brahnmins, pymgies or even Hawaiian dancers (who
> yes I know are Americans). I wasn't talking about men at beaches nor
> was I talking about men swimming.

===============================
Most "white trash" have nothing to do with nudism.
They think as you and jonzee do.
===============================
>
> What I was talking about was men in most other contexts. Walking or
> Jogging down the street, such stuff like that.
>
=============================
Good times to be almost naked!
=============================

> And by using the word "white trash" I wasn't even only talking about
> white males. The better word would be "trailer parkish" as that doesn't
> denote any race or skin color.
>
===========================
See above.
YOUR thinking is identical to "trailer trash" thinking.
Most of those men wear filthy, torn tank tops while they will their beer in
the driveway.
=============================

> Again, I am talking about commonly in America. Not in religious
> celemonies. Not at the beach. In every day life males shouldn't go
> around topless in public. Even if it is really hot they should have the
> decency to put on a shirt. Most American males do, even when it is hot.
>
============================
Decency has nothing to do with it!
============================

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	21 Jan 2005 03:17:42 -0800

Super_Nudist@fastermail.com wrote:
> Max Jefferson wrote:
> Btw, Have you ever been to a nudist venue? If so, did you notice a
lot
> of people who were turned on? (Paradise Lakes and Hedo don't count!)
> Super Nudist

The fact is that at least Paradise Lake is promoted by the nudist
community. So this proves that the nudist movement can't even separate
non-ualized nudism from ualized nudism.

From:	Super_Nudist at fastermail.com
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	21 Jan 2005 11:06:36 -0800

Max Says:
The fact is that at least Paradise Lake is promoted by the nudist
community. So this proves that the nudist movement can't even separate
non-ualized nudism from ualized nudism.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you make that assumption, based on one resort, huh? FWIW, Paradise
Lakes has a kind of a y reputation, and yes ual activity does
sometimes take place there (even though it's *theoretically* frowned
upon.) but it's not as if the place is one giant orgy (at least not
before late at night anyway.)
But, you still didn't answer my questions.

Super Nudist

From:	Mark
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:45:31 GMT

wrote in message
news:1106334396.641683.209160@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Max Says:
> The fact is that at least Paradise Lake is promoted by the nudist
> community. So this proves that the nudist movement can't even separate
> non-ualized nudism from ualized nudism.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> So you make that assumption, based on one resort, huh? FWIW, Paradise
> Lakes has a kind of a y reputation, and yes ual activity does
> sometimes take place there (even though it's *theoretically* frowned
> upon.) but it's not as if the place is one giant orgy (at least not
> before late at night anyway.)
> But, you still didn't answer my questions.

And he won't! I've been asking him for months why he comes to rec.nude,
given his (uneducated) position. I've yet to have him address the
question.....so don't hold your breath.

From:	shomymojo
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	21 Jan 2005 06:25:40 -0800

Max...i can see that you just don't get it...its about FREEDOM...not
SEX...with which YOU seem to be obsessed...LOL....Shomymojo

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	22 Jan 2005 00:18:57 -0800

Dario Western wrote:
>>
> Female nipples are there to provide milk for children, males aren't.

Exactly. There is no comparison between male breasts and females.
Sorry. But that is just one of the ways that nature made males and
females different.

So if you define equality as being the same then males and females
aren't equal. They should be equal in respect, equal in worth, etc, but
they are made differently. That doesn't make one better than the
other, but it does make them different. And therefore there are certain
things that must be treated differently. The fact that womens breasts
are more ual than males is just one of the differences.
Not a hard concept to understand. Men and Women are different. Duh!

From:	Mark
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:58:46 GMT

Stop repeating your self Mini-Z.....

> Exactly. There is no comparison between male breasts and females.
> Sorry. But that is just one of the ways that nature made males and
> females different.
>
> So if you define equality as being the same then males and females
> aren't equal. They should be equal in respect, equal in worth, etc, but
> they are made differently. That doesn't make one better than the
> other, but it does make them different. And therefore there are certain
> things that must be treated differently. The fact that womens breasts
> are more ual than males is just one of the differences.
> Not a hard concept to understand. Men and Women are different. Duh!
>

From:	Richard C.
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:14:02 -0800

X-No-archive: yes

"Max Jefferson" wrote in message
news:1106381937.073678.241160@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dario Western wrote:
>>>
>> Female nipples are there to provide milk for children, males aren't.
>
> Exactly. There is no comparison between male breasts and females.
> Sorry. But that is just one of the ways that nature made males and
> females different.
>
=============================
I providing milk a ual act for you?
==============================

> So if you define equality as being the same then males and females
> aren't equal. They should be equal in respect, equal in worth, etc, but
> they are made differently. That doesn't make one better than the
> other, but it does make them different. And therefore there are certain
> things that must be treated differently. The fact that womens breasts
> are more ual than males is just one of the differences.
> Not a hard concept to understand. Men and Women are different. Duh!
>
=============================
But they both were born naked and they both would be more comfortable that
way (weather permitting).

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	21 Jan 2005 12:03:48 -0800

Super_Nud...@fastermail.com wrote:
>> Super Nudist: The word is unequal max, not inequal! Anyway, unequal
> perhaps, but nature can't be ist. Nature isn't ist, just some
> people are . Nature doesn't have the capability to think which is
> required for someone to be ist. Nature is not a someone, nature is
a
> something. (You do know that don't you?)
> Super Nudist
> (Doing my part to educate Max)

Sorry for the typo. And of course I was being sacastic about nature.
The truth is that nature treats men and women differently and that is
why we can't treat men and women the same either.

Women's breasts are part of what makes her ual. Men's breasts
aren't. Men don't usually have breasts like women do. With the big
nipple and all of that.

Men and women are different. That should be a news flash for you.
Therefore if you consider being treated "equal" as being treated "the
same" then that can never happen. Because men and women aren't equal in
that sense. They are equal in the sense of deserving the same respect
and of the same worth as men, but their bodies act differently than
mens do. Women think differently than men most often due to genetics
(though you can always find people who can break through the genetics
and think like a man does but I am talking about in general. There are
things that most females do better than males and things that most
males do better than females.

Don't know why that is such a hard concept to understand. To use a
clich=E8 men really are from Mars and women really are from Venus. In
most cases though exceptions do exist.

And again getting back to the topless situation, women are structured
more ually in that part of the body than men are. But still I am
against males going topless in public as well (except the beach and
swimming). It is so "white trashy" of them (and I am just using that
term for a lack of a better word as I am not refering to the color of
their skin). So low class and "trailer parkish"(a word I just made up
but you get the image I am talking about).

From:	Richard C.
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:46:26 -0800

X-No-archive: yes

"Max Jefferson" wrote in message
news:1106337828.365022.196160@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Super_Nud...@fastermail.com wrote:
>> Super Nudist: The word is unequal max, not inequal! Anyway, unequal
> perhaps, but nature can't be ist. Nature isn't ist, just some
> people are . Nature doesn't have the capability to think which is
> required for someone to be ist. Nature is not a someone, nature is
a
> something. (You do know that don't you?)
> Super Nudist
> (Doing my part to educate Max)

Sorry for the typo. And of course I was being sacastic about nature.
The truth is that nature treats men and women differently and that is
why we can't treat men and women the same either.

====================================
That is the kind of thinking that harms many women.
======================================

Women's breasts are part of what makes her ual. Men's breasts
aren't. Men don't usually have breasts like women do. With the big
nipple and all of that.

=============================
You are really twisted.
==============================

Men and women are different. That should be a news flash for you.
Therefore if you consider being treated "equal" as being treated "the
same" then that can never happen. Because men and women aren't equal in
that sense. They are equal in the sense of deserving the same respect
and of the same worth as men, but their bodies act differently than
mens do. Women think differently than men most often due to genetics
(though you can always find people who can break through the genetics
and think like a man does but I am talking about in general. There are
things that most females do better than males and things that most
males do better than females.

Don't know why that is such a hard concept to understand. To use a
clichè men really are from Mars and women really are from Venus. In
most cases though exceptions do exist.

And again getting back to the topless situation, women are structured
more ually in that part of the body than men are. But still I am
against males going topless in public as well (except the beach and
swimming). It is so "white trashy" of them (and I am just using that
term for a lack of a better word as I am not refering to the color of
their skin). So low class and "trailer parkish"(a word I just made up
but you get the image I am talking about).

====================================
You need to be sent back ro re-grooving!
============================

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	21 Jan 2005 08:17:57 -0800

Max Jefferson wrote:
> >From the article:
>
> "The only places that I have felt equality, inclusion and respect
while
> topless has been in women-only spaces. As soon as men are introduced,
> some women begin to cater to the men, some men become lecherous pigs
> claiming ownership of our breasts against our wills, and it all
> degrades...fast."
> http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050119101603517

The equality issues that this writer brings up misses the mark. First
of all I am against males being topless in public (unless it is at a
beach or swimming). It is so tacky, low class, white trashy for a lack
of a better word.

But that is beside the point. The fact is that a woman's breast is
different than any males (even the big fat males). It reacts to ual
stimulus. It is different in form and function than what males have.

So, if this writer has a problem with the fact that males can go
topless in public and for the most part women can't it isn't the fault
of a male dominated society. Society isn't to blame; nature is. And
nature can be very ist and inequal at times.

From:	Richard C.
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:00:57 -0800

X-No-archive: yes

"Max Jefferson" wrote in message
news:1106324277.101824.259080@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> The equality issues that this writer brings up misses the mark. First
> of all I am against males being topless in public (unless it is at a
> beach or swimming). It is so tacky, low class, white trashy for a lack
> of a better word.

================================
You have GOT to be kidding!
What kind of damaged pervert are you?
=================================
>
> But that is beside the point. The fact is that a woman's breast is
> different than any males (even the big fat males). It reacts to ual
> stimulus. It is different in form and function than what males have.
>
====================================
Male breasts (nipples) react in exactly the same way.
Too bad for you that yours don't.
=====================================

> So, if this writer has a problem with the fact that males can go
> topless in public and for the most part women can't it isn't the fault
> of a male dominated society. Society isn't to blame; nature is. And
> nature can be very ist and inequal at times.
>
==========================
No.....ist, -obsessed, anal twits such as YOU are to blame.

From:	Dan Abel
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:23:17 -0800

In article <41f15c34$0$27460$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Richard
C." wrote:

> "Max Jefferson" wrote in message
> news:1106324277.101824.259080@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > The equality issues that this writer brings up misses the mark. First
> > of all I am against males being topless in public (unless it is at a
> > beach or swimming). It is so tacky, low class, white trashy for a lack
> > of a better word.
>
> ================================
> You have GOT to be kidding!
> What kind of damaged pervert are you?
> =================================

A rec.nude troll obviously. But you probably already knew that.

:-(

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS
dabel@sonic.net

From:	Dario Western
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:09:31 +1000

Max,

> > The equality issues that this writer brings up misses the mark. First
> > of all I am against males being topless in public (unless it is at a
> > beach or swimming). It is so tacky, low class, white trashy for a lack
> > of a better word.

You are one freaking dead set idiot. What about NON-WHITE men who go
topless in public for religious ceremonial purposes for instance?! So, you
are likening men who are pygmies, Hindu Brahmins, and Hawaiian dancers with
white trailer trash American rednecks? Think before you speak sometimes, or
just shut up and go away. You think that it's more healthier for men to
wear thick 3 piece suits in the middle of summer and sweating like mad?

> ================================
> You have GOT to be kidding!
> What kind of damaged pervert are you?
> =================================
> >
> > But that is beside the point. The fact is that a woman's breast is
> > different than any males (even the big fat males). It reacts to ual
> > stimulus. It is different in form and function than what males have.
> >
> ====================================
> Male breasts (nipples) react in exactly the same way.
> Too bad for you that yours don't.
> =====================================

Female nipples are there to provide milk for children, males aren't.

> > So, if this writer has a problem with the fact that males can go
> > topless in public and for the most part women can't it isn't the fault
> > of a male dominated society. Society isn't to blame; nature is. And
> > nature can be very ist and inequal at times.
> >
> ==========================
> No.....ist, -obsessed, anal twits such as YOU are to blame.

Right on, Richard.

Dario Western

From:	Molly Wilson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:20:58 -0600

dario....your immaturity is showing.....since the world travels on
freeways nowadays and most filler ups with eateries..... require shirts
shoes and pants ....i see no special hardship being served to the
general public for men to also wear a covering...t shirts are
comfortable in high temperatures....and with the exception of around
lakes ponds and beaches....it is unusual to see a man that is
topless.....with the exception of white trashy rednecks......i suppose i
have not seen your religious kind that are topless.....where do they
hang out ......jonZeee

www.nudisthallofshame.info

From:	Super_Nudist at fastermail.com
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	20 Jan 2005 23:43:32 -0800

Max Jefferson wrote:
> Breanainn wrote:
> > On 20 Jan 2005 16:24:12 -0800, "Max Jefferson"
> > wrote:
> >
> > >>From the article:
> > >
> > >"The only places that I have felt equality, inclusion and respect
> while
> > >topless has been in women-only spaces. As soon as men are
> introduced,
> > >some women begin to cater to the men, some men become lecherous
pigs
> > >claiming ownership of our breasts against our wills, and it all
> > >degrades...fast."
> > >http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050119101603517
> >
> > Max,
> >
> > When you quote an article, don't just use the part that agrees
with
> > your particular mind-set.
> >
> > That part may show the problem she has with people like you and
Jonz
> > in a group setting, but this is how she feels overall about nudity
-
> > from the same article
> >
> > "I have no problem with nudity or toplessness in groups. I grew up
in
> > a clothing optional environment, and I have pretty healthy body
> > esteem, believing all body types are beautiful, so I am not
hesitant
> > to go topless, or even naked, due to the bodily exposure."
> >
> > Breanainn
>
> She believes exactly what I have been saying. She doesn't have a
> problem with going naked as a result of some kind of internal feeling
> of shame. She has a problem going naked (or topless) because of the
> responses she gets from the opposite .
>
> I agree. I would have no problem with being nude except that when
> adults are together naked it is most always ual. They might call
it
> "sensual" but what they mean is that it is ual. Only little
children
> can go around innocently naked because they know not of the
> relationship of to nudity.
>
> Nudism is an ideal that is impractical in the real world. That is
what
> she said in this article. Even though going topless in Santa Cruz is
> legal few do so because of the response they get. At the Oregon
County
> Fair it is also legal for all women to go topless as well, but the
> only women who do are skinny ones who want to please men.
>
> So while it may be possible to disassociate and nudity (I don't
> know why one would want to since it increases the ual experience
> when you only see women naked rarely) it isn't possible for all
people
> to do so. And as long as you have people who don't, you will not able
> to have non-seuxalized nudism.
>
> So I quote fromt the end of the article. "The women are as guilty of
> playing into all this as the men are. Women get power off of the
ual
> attention, there is no denying it. And we all know that women are not
> morally superior to men. I am not letting men off that easy. It is
not
> men or women, but perhaps the interplay between the two, that is
> causing the problem."
>
> Non-ualized nudism as protrayed by nudists just isn't possible
> between adults. Sexuality will always be in the background. The
> nudists even admit it though they use the euphemism "sensuality" when
> they do.

No Max, Sensual does not always equal ual. Feeling the warm breezes,
the water, and the sunshine all over your body feels *sensual* maybe
for some it might be ual (but usually not). Just because something
feels good (sensual) does not necessarily mean it's a turn-on (ual),
do you understand now?

Btw, Have you ever been to a nudist venue? If so, did you notice a lot
of people who were turned on? (Paradise Lakes and Hedo don't count!)
Super Nudist
(who thinks that Max probably still won't understand.)

From:	AridZonaGal
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	22 Jan 2005 21:36:31 GMT

>No Max, Sensual does not always equal ual. Feeling the warm breezes,
>the water, and the sunshine all over your body feels *sensual* maybe
>for some it might be ual (but usually not). Just because something
>feels good (sensual) does not necessarily mean it's a turn-on (ual),
>do you understand now?
>
>Btw, Have you ever been to a nudist venue? If so, did you notice a lot
>of people who were turned on? (Paradise Lakes and Hedo don't count!)
>Super Nudist
>(who thinks that Max probably still won't understand.)
>
>
I find just the opposite Super Nudist. Most nudists that I know, myself
included, find nudism very y. One doesn't have to get turned on to feel y
about it. It's a freeing sensual experience that can be very y. Unless you
are amongst a bunch of whiny or mean people or people with bad hygiene. Then it
would be just like if you had clothes on; not very y. Unless of course
whiny, mean and nasty turn you on.
DesertDwellingGal

From:	Richard C.
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:40:27 -0800

X-No-archive: yes

"AridZonaGal" wrote in message
news:20050122163631.10783.00000170@mb-m29.aol.com...
> >No Max, Sensual does not always equal ual. Feeling the warm breezes,
>>the water, and the sunshine all over your body feels *sensual* maybe
>>for some it might be ual (but usually not). Just because something
>>feels good (sensual) does not necessarily mean it's a turn-on (ual),
>>do you understand now?
>>
>>Btw, Have you ever been to a nudist venue? If so, did you notice a lot
>>of people who were turned on? (Paradise Lakes and Hedo don't count!)
>>Super Nudist
>>(who thinks that Max probably still won't understand.)
>>
>>
> I find just the opposite Super Nudist. Most nudists that I know,
> myself
> included, find nudism very y. One doesn't have to get turned on to feel
> y
> about it. It's a freeing sensual experience that can be very y. Unless
> you
> are amongst a bunch of whiny or mean people or people with bad hygiene.
> Then it
> would be just like if you had clothes on; not very y. Unless of course
> whiny, mean and nasty turn you on.
> DesertDwellingGal

===========================
Are you sure you understand the definitions of "y" and "sensual" and the
difference?

From:	Floyd Baker
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:15:09 -0500

On 22 Jan 2005 21:36:31 GMT, aridzonagal@aol.comabcdefg (AridZonaGal)
wrote:

>>No Max, Sensual does not always equal ual. Feeling the warm breezes,
>>the water, and the sunshine all over your body feels *sensual* maybe
>>for some it might be ual (but usually not). Just because something
>>feels good (sensual) does not necessarily mean it's a turn-on (ual),
>>do you understand now?
>>
>>Btw, Have you ever been to a nudist venue? If so, did you notice a lot
>>of people who were turned on? (Paradise Lakes and Hedo don't count!)
>>Super Nudist
>>(who thinks that Max probably still won't understand.)
>>
>>
> I find just the opposite Super Nudist. Most nudists that I know, myself
>included, find nudism very y. One doesn't have to get turned on to feel y
>about it. It's a freeing sensual experience that can be very y. Unless you
>are amongst a bunch of whiny or mean people or people with bad hygiene. Then it
>would be just like if you had clothes on; not very y. Unless of course
>whiny, mean and nasty turn you on.
>DesertDwellingGal

This may be a dupe as the first appears not to have posted.

Many people confuse uality and sensuality. Is it because they
sound the same?

Sensuality may come from , in addition to everything else, but this
is simply another case of 'all four legged animals are not cows'.

Of course you do categorize it, perhaps inadvertently. You state that
being nude is not ual per se..., that it is the people you are
with. Exactly!

Floyd

Please visit my website at www.cheef.com/buffaloskin/

* Learn about the lifestyle *

From:	Molly Wilson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:17:06 -0600

he he Floyd....so it does appear now that the nudist are accepting
sensuality as a genuine staple of their behavior.....but are reluctant
to say it has any thing to do with .....so lets get back to the chaos
of the present day nudism in which a state ie..virginia.....sees it as
ual and wonders how nudist are able to explain to the
children.....hey kids.....us adults know it is sensual to be naked with
everyone but there is a difference between sensuality and
uality....may be that the nudist need to tell the textiles that all
nudist children will be enrolled in a sensuality / uality seminar to
deualize their understanding of running around naked in front of
everybody and will generate some new regulations......maintain eye
contact and stop checking out male penises....ahhh dem nudist ....they
do have their work cut out for them...jonZeee.

From:	Floyd Baker
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:28:47 -0500

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:17:06 -0600, mollyewilson@webtv.net (Molly
Wilson) wrote:

>he he Floyd....so it does appear now that the nudist are accepting
>sensuality as a genuine staple of their behavior.....but are reluctant
>to say it has any thing to do with .....so lets get back to the chaos
>of the present day nudism in which a state ie..virginia.....sees it as
>ual and wonders how nudist are able to explain to the
>children.....hey kids.....us adults know it is sensual to be naked with
>everyone but there is a difference between sensuality and
>uality....may be that the nudist need to tell the textiles that all
>nudist children will be enrolled in a sensuality / uality seminar to
>deualize their understanding of running around naked in front of
>everybody and will generate some new regulations......maintain eye
>contact and stop checking out male penises....ahhh dem nudist ....they
>do have their work cut out for them...jonZeee.

Gad... what does it take. Of course we're sensual... We love the
air and the sun on our bodies. They lack of constrictions and
sweating that clothing causes. Nudity certainly is one great sensual
feeling. Don't *you* get anything good feeling out of being alive?
You should try nudism johnz. It's not just for dancers you know?
I feel sorry for those who don't appreciate it. They can't get and
hold real jobs. They sweat and stink so others don't like them much.
With all the dressing and caring for their many colored personal
pieces of cloth, they have no time for the important things in life...
For entertainment they buy Playboy's, watch Stern T.V. and lot's of
other weird unless and pointless things... Well except for those
Playmate boobs. Not being a nudist leads to obesity, shorter lives,
being a couch potato, and a lowering in levels of intelligence.

Is that what's happened to you johnz?

Floyd

Please visit my website at www.cheef.com/buffaloskin/

* Learn about the lifestyle *

From:	Dario Western
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:33:04 +1000

Hi Floyd,

> You should try nudism johnz. It's not just for dancers you know?
> I feel sorry for those who don't appreciate it. They can't get and
> hold real jobs. They sweat and stink so others don't like them much.

I've been turned AWAY from jobs because of being into nudism.

> With all the dressing and caring for their many colored personal
> pieces of cloth, they have no time for the important things in life...
> For entertainment they buy Playboy's, watch Stern T.V. and lot's of
> other weird unless and pointless things... Well except for those
> Playmate boobs. Not being a nudist leads to obesity, shorter lives,
> being a couch potato, and a lowering in levels of intelligence.

Yes and no. There are some nudists who buy Playboy and Penthouse, like
Howard Stern, and very very questionable ual behaviours. As indeed there
are others who are quite highbrow, prefer to listen to classical and jazz
radio, and save ual behaviours and intimacy with their dearly beloveds
only.

You can't generalise about nudists being in the one and same category.
However, the new edition of TAN magazine has an article called 'Why Naturist
men live longer'. I could send you a copy of it if you wish. A pity that
they wouldn't put something like that in Men's Health magazine - but there
you go. :-(

Dario Western

>
> Please visit my website at www.cheef.com/buffaloskin/
>
> * Learn about the lifestyle *

From:	Floyd Baker
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:37:46 -0500

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:33:04 +1000, "Dario Western"
wrote:

>Hi Floyd,
>
>> You should try nudism johnz. It's not just for dancers you know?
>> I feel sorry for those who don't appreciate it. They can't get and
>> hold real jobs. They sweat and stink so others don't like them much.
>
>I've been turned AWAY from jobs because of being into nudism.

IOW you didn't like them and didn't take them because they were too
textile? That's good. I would too.., now that I've grown wiser
and into more sensible things...

>> With all the dressing and caring for their many colored personal
>> pieces of cloth, they have no time for the important things in life...
>> For entertainment they buy Playboy's, watch Stern T.V. and lot's of
>> other weird unless and pointless things... Well except for those
>> Playmate boobs. Not being a nudist leads to obesity, shorter lives,
>> being a couch potato, and a lowering in levels of intelligence.
>
>Yes and no. There are some nudists who buy Playboy and Penthouse, like
>Howard Stern, and very very questionable ual behaviours.

Yes I do understand you're a nudist Dario...

>As indeed there
>are others who are quite highbrow, prefer to listen to classical and jazz
>radio, and save ual behaviours and intimacy with their dearly beloveds
>only.

The second group are very potential nudists... All they have to do is
get the thought in their heads of what and why, and they'll no doubt
give it a go...

>You can't generalise about nudists being in the one and same category.

I guess you can though? Cause, I don't believe I said anything like
that... I said a shorter version of...; textiles waste their time,
money, energy, natural resources, environment, and health, just
**being** textiles... That's a fact and I don't have to generalize.

>However, the new edition of TAN magazine has an article called 'Why Naturist
>men live longer'. I could send you a copy of it if you wish. A pity that
>they wouldn't put something like that in Men's Health magazine - but there
>you go. :-(

I know why men live longer... Women do too... Actually women live
*longer* than men.. In any case, we're well on our way to 200 year
old people... They're already born and have to practice you know?
If you send me TAN, I'll buy and send you a Playboy. Ha! I'm sure
they're not hard to find in AU though. But what *would* you like
that maybe I can did up... Any subject?

How about one on tango dancing..? It's very 'sensual'... :-)

>Dario Western

Floyd

Please visit my website at www.cheef.com/buffaloskin/

* Learn about the lifestyle *

From:	Dario Western
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:32:21 +1000

Floyd,

> IOW you didn't like them and didn't take them because they were too
> textile? That's good. I would too.., now that I've grown wiser
> and into more sensible things...

Actually, no. What happened was I had a text only article that I wrote for
Australian Sun & Health when I was 19 in my resume and applied for a job at
an AYCE restaurant (All You Can Eat). They said that I wasn't successful
because there was some stuff in my CV that they thought was off-putting.

> >> With all the dressing and caring for their many colored personal
> >> pieces of cloth, they have no time for the important things in life...
> >> For entertainment they buy Playboy's, watch Stern T.V. and lot's of
> >> other weird unless and pointless things... Well except for those
> >> Playmate boobs. Not being a nudist leads to obesity, shorter lives,
> >> being a couch potato, and a lowering in levels of intelligence.
> >
> >Yes and no. There are some nudists who buy Playboy and Penthouse, like
> >Howard Stern, and very very questionable ual behaviours.
>
> Yes I do understand you're a nudist Dario...
>
> >As indeed there
> >are others who are quite highbrow, prefer to listen to classical and jazz
> >radio, and save ual behaviours and intimacy with their dearly beloveds
> >only.
>
> The second group are very potential nudists... All they have to do is
> get the thought in their heads of what and why, and they'll no doubt
> give it a go...

Actually, a long-term opera singer in Brisbane opened up a nudist B&B for a
while. It had a nice pool, spa, and amenities. No smoking, drunk behaviour
or monkey business. I enjoyed my stay at the place, but last time I spoke
to them they had closed it off because they weren't running it at a profit.

> >You can't generalise about nudists being in the one and same category.
>
> I guess you can though? Cause, I don't believe I said anything like
> that... I said a shorter version of...; textiles waste their time,
> money, energy, natural resources, environment, and health, just
> **being** textiles... That's a fact and I don't have to generalize.

I can agree with you about clothes being a waste of money, time and
enviromental waste to produce. There are some nudists who also like to have
a bit of a flutter, care jack s*** about the environment and enjoy having a
smoke and booze-up. A few years ago I was at a nudist camp where a guy was
burning his garbage on his bbq. I said to him "it's not environmentally
friendly!" He just said "Ah, f... the environment! There was never any of
this environmental awareness stuff back in the 70's."

> >However, the new edition of TAN magazine has an article called 'Why
Naturist
> >men live longer'. I could send you a copy of it if you wish. A pity
that
> >they wouldn't put something like that in Men's Health magazine - but
there
> >you go. :-(
>
> I know why men live longer... Women do too... Actually women live
> *longer* than men.. In any case, we're well on our way to 200 year
> old people... They're already born and have to practice you know?

;-) I think we all know why women live longer than men.

> If you send me TAN, I'll buy and send you a Playboy. Ha! I'm sure
> they're not hard to find in AU though. But what *would* you like
> that maybe I can did up... Any subject?

You can still get Playboy in Australia, although the Australian edition went
out of circulation in late 1998. Used to get it on the odd occasion, but
haven't bought any copies in a LOOONG time.

> How about one on tango dancing..? It's very 'sensual'... :-)

I have a lady friend who is a tango dancing tutor. She used to teach mum
and dad a few years back. She's in her 50's and has so much resilience and
vigour. Tango dancing is very popular in Australia, especially with young
adults.

Dario Western

From:	Max Jefferson
Subject:	Re: Kirsten Anderberg: Women and Their Illegal Breasts
Date:	22 Jan 2005 13:49:33 -0800

AridZonaGal wrote:

>Most nudists that I know, myself included, find nudism very y.

So nudism is about . There goes the myth about non-ualized
nudism. Thank you AridZonaGal for being honest.