Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<

Netting is always an option
but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
For them it spoils the look,
makes it hard to work in the pond,
ruins the look of tall marginals,
gets blown off,
for me it is a danger for my dogs, younger children, the squirrels
and the birds.
Herons have stabbed through nets, green herons have wriggled under
nets. If you tangle up a heron in your net and kill it you have some
serious explaining to do to the feds.
Other options DO work for other ponders so I think it is important to
list them as they DO work.
I most always list netting as an option but other options
DO WORK for other ponders.

kathy

From:	~ Windsong ~
Subject:	Re: Herons
Date:	Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:53:11 -0600

"kathy" wrote in message
news:1105559973.593705.306090@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<
>
> Netting is always an option
> but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
> For them it spoils the look,

## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall gawky
water sprayers and wire/string strung all over the place. I didn't want to
net mine either considering they're both in front of my house. However I
was sick and tired of losing koi and GF to these predators. We did try
other methods first. Nothing worked. Perhaps other people can afford the
endless losses and don't get attached to their fish. I do. It was both an
emotional issue as well as a financial issue. When herons and King Fishers
discover your pond all you become is a feeding station for them. Also, if
you're in an area frequented by these birds you will usually (but not
always) also end up with large fish eating water snakes and bullfrogs. At
that point you may as well buy a fish hatchery.

> makes it hard to work in the pond,

## To a degree yes, but much easier then picking up the half eaten remains
of your new koi or favorite 5 year old Shubunken. Or realizing all three of
your butterfly koi are GONE when you go out to feed them.

> ruins the look of tall marginals,
> gets blown off,

## It can't get blown off if it's put on right. You don't just toss it over
the pond.

> for me it is a danger for my dogs, younger children, the squirrels
> and the birds.

## How can a net possibly be a danger to children and squirrels? Yes,
sometimes small birds will get caught. I release them. That has only
happened a few times in the last 5 years. I would rather a child fall on
the net then into the water and possibly drown. You can get around the
small bird problem as we did by putting a full clean birdbath near the pond.

> Herons have stabbed through nets,

## Herons do not STAB fish through nets or any other way. Herons GRAB the
fish with their beaks - they do not stab them!

green herons have wriggled under
> nets.

## Then the net was not installed correctly.

If you tangle up a heron in your net and kill it you have some
> serious explaining to do to the feds.

## I have never had one tangled up in the net. The net is too tight to
tangle a large bird. A small bird may get a head and wing caught. Also the
Feds do not post the "pond police" in your backyard! LOL!!! You've got to
be kidding me!!!! :-D

> Other options DO work for other ponders so I think it is important to
> list them as they DO work.

## Anyone can try anything they choose. It all depends on how much they
value their fish. Some people are more interested in the appearance their
ponds make - to each her/his own.

> I most always list netting as an option but other options
> DO WORK for other ponders.

## That depends on where they live of course,... because herons are only
ONE predator fish keepers have to contend with. I wish someone had told me
these things BEFORE I wasted my time, money and lost so many fish before
getting the nets.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:	Cichlidiot
Subject:	Re: Herons
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:06:10 +0000 (UTC)

In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ wrote:
> "kathy" wrote in message
> news:1105559973.593705.306090@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<
>>
>> Netting is always an option
>> but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
>> For them it spoils the look,

> ## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall gawky
> water sprayers and wire/string strung all over the place. I didn't want to
> net mine either considering they're both in front of my house. However I
> was sick and tired of losing koi and GF to these predators. We did try
> other methods first. Nothing worked. Perhaps other people can afford the
> endless losses and don't get attached to their fish. I do. It was both an
> emotional issue as well as a financial issue. When herons and King Fishers
> discover your pond all you become is a feeding station for them. Also, if
> you're in an area frequented by these birds you will usually (but not
> always) also end up with large fish eating water snakes and bullfrogs. At
> that point you may as well buy a fish hatchery.

Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond. The stream was
teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
easy pickings. Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
season, but it's easy to get more). The only koi lost was due to human
problems when a teen threw a stepping stone from the garden into the pond
and it hit a koi.

The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching the
herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I thought.

From:	Derek Broughton
Subject:	Re: Herons
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:25:25 -0400

Cichlidiot wrote:

> Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
> designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
> fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
> design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
> long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond. The stream was

Sounds good.

> teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
> herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
> in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
> easy pickings. Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
> suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
> season, but it's easy to get more).

Not likely to be a problem. I've never seen mosquito larvae or even many
mosquitos around my ponds. Koi and Goldfish are quite happy to eat them
too.

> The only koi lost was due to human
> problems when a teen threw a stepping stone from the garden into the pond
> and it hit a koi.

Remove stone, tie round teenager's neck, repeat...

> The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
> other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter.

I've done that. It requires vigilance, though. That milfoil has a tendency
to dam the whole stream.

--
derek

From:	~ Windsong ~
Subject:	Re: Herons
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:05:46 -0600

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
news:cs69q2$m3g$1@skeeter.ucdavis.edu...
> In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ wrote:
> > "kathy" wrote in message
> > news:1105559973.593705.306090@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> Carol wrote >>And in the end only bird netting works<<
> >>
> >> Netting is always an option
> >> but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
> >> For them it spoils the look,
>
> > ## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall
gawky
> > water sprayers and wire/string strung all over the place. I didn't want
to
> > net mine either considering they're both in front of my house. However
I
> > was sick and tired of losing koi and GF to these predators. We did try
> > other methods first. Nothing worked. Perhaps other people can afford
the
> > endless losses and don't get attached to their fish. I do. It was both
an
> > emotional issue as well as a financial issue. When herons and King
Fishers
> > discover your pond all you become is a feeding station for them. Also,
if
> > you're in an area frequented by these birds you will usually (but not
> > always) also end up with large fish eating water snakes and bullfrogs.
At
> > that point you may as well buy a fish hatchery.
>
> Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
> designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
> fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
> design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
> long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

$$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea what
something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could call
in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with one
huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if there
are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers) King
Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
attractive or natural looking.

The stream was
> teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
> herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
> in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
> easy pickings.

$$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry or
small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of the
pond itself?

Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
> suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
> season, but it's easy to get more).

$$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe you
managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
mosquito fish?

The only koi lost was due to human
> problems when a teen threw a stepping stone from the garden into the pond
> and it hit a koi.

$$ Fortunately we don't have problems like that since we live out in the
country.

> The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
> other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
> pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
> partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
> muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching the
> herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I thought.

$$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us who
don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
huge streams?
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:	Benign Vanilla
Subject:	Re: Herons
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:37:54 -0500

"~ Windsong ~" wrote in message
news:xPKdnUNL1tAXW3vcRVn-uQ@heartoftn.net...

> > Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
> > designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
> > fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
> > design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
> > long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.
>
> $$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea what
> something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could
call
> in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with one
> huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if
there
> are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers)
King
> Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
> attractive or natural looking.

I beg your pardon. The near edge of my pond goes vertical to the bottom,
http://www.darofamily.com/jeff/files/2004/mayjune/p1010064.jpg. And I think
it's perty damn nice pond. :)

> > The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
> > other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
> > pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
> > partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
> > muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching
the
> > herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I
thought.
>
> $$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
who
> don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
> huge streams?

I built my stream, which is about 5-6 feet long, with scraps of liner. :)

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

From:	~ Windsong ~
Subject:	Re: Herons
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:10:30 -0600

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
news:34o4h1F4eadduU1@individual.net...
>
> "~ Windsong ~" wrote in message
> news:xPKdnUNL1tAXW3vcRVn-uQ@heartoftn.net...
>
> > > Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
> > > designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
> > > fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
> > > design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
> > > long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.
> >
> > $$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea
what
> > something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could
> call
> > in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with
one
> > huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if
> there
> > are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers)
> King
> > Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
> > attractive or natural looking.
>
> I beg your pardon. The near edge of my pond goes vertical to the bottom,
> http://www.darofamily.com/jeff/files/2004/mayjune/p1010064.jpg. And I
think
> it's perty damn nice pond. :)

## Very nice pond. :-) My large pond has a plant shelf along 3 sides.

> > $$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
> who
> > don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
> > huge streams?

> I built my stream, which is about 5-6 feet long, with scraps of liner. :)

## Sounds nice. ;-)

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:	~ jan JJsPond.us
Subject:	Re: Herons
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:45:38 -0800

>On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:05:46 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" wrote:

>> > ## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall
>> >gawky water sprayers

My motion sprinkler is neither gawky, nor tall. It only stands 18" high at
most, and is hardly noticable, as friends keep walking right in front of
it. Okay..... X-friends. ;o)

>$$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-)

>$$ And what about those of us who
>don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
>huge streams?

Carol, Did it occur that maybe every suggestion or comment here is not
necessary directed at you? I'm sure someone out there in usenet might have
money like this, and quite frankly, I wish they'd send me some and get the
idea of ponds out of their silly heads! It is obvious by this thread that
they'll just ugly net covered eye sores at best and/or will break their
hearts with fish losses at worst. So you all know it is a plead for money> STOP PUTTING IN PONDS AND WASTING MONEY, SEND
IT TO ME! That's jjspondatgocougs.wsu.edu for direct contact on where to
send your dough. ;o)

In conclusion I think everyone here will agree that Carol Heron's Book To Fine Dining> Windsong should always keep a net on her
ponds, no doubt about it. :o)

The rest of us can probably try other things with success, knowing nets are
always an option. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

From:	~ Windsong ~
Subject:	Re: Herons
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:18:12 -0600

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
news:b7feu0lgn2gn8udgm8394fpibl09tkkp3q@4ax.com...
> >On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:05:46 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" wrote:
>
> >> > ## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall
> >> >gawky water sprayers
>
> My motion sprinkler is neither gawky, nor tall. It only stands 18" high at
> most, and is hardly noticable, as friends keep walking right in front of
> it. Okay..... X-friends. ;o)

## LOL!! :-D

> Carol, Did it occur that maybe every suggestion or comment here is not
> necessary directed at you?

## I thought it was,... silly me. :-))

I'm sure someone out there in usenet might have
> money like this, and quite frankly, I wish they'd send me some and get the
> idea of ponds out of their silly heads!

## With my husband semi-retired we can't invest any more money in ponds. I
wish we could. I would love to have one 3000 gallon pond rather then the 2
I have.

It is obvious by this thread that
> they'll just ugly net covered eye sores at best and/or will break their
> hearts with fish losses at worst. So you all > know it is a plead for money> STOP PUTTING IN PONDS AND WASTING MONEY,
SEND
> IT TO ME! That's jjspondatgocougs.wsu.edu for direct contact on where to
> send your dough. ;o)

## If they send you too much you can split it with me.

> In conclusion I think everyone here will agree that Carol > Heron's Book To Fine Dining> Windsong should always keep a net on her
> ponds, no doubt about it. :o)

## Only if I want to keep GF and koi.

> The rest of us can probably try other things with success, knowing nets
are
> always an option. ~ jan

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:	Cichlidiot
Subject:	Re: Herons
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:51:12 +0000 (UTC)

In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ wrote:
> "Cichlidiot" wrote in message
> news:cs69q2$m3g$1@skeeter.ucdavis.edu...
>> Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
>> designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
>> fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
>> design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
>> long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

> $$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea what
> something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could call
> in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with one
> huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if there
> are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers) King
> Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
> attractive or natural looking.

To quote one of my favorite characters... "my, but we are in a mood
today". You do seem to be quite argumentative on this subject. I will make
this one attempt at reason, but any more such illogical replies such as
"if we were rich" will be summarily ignored.

The setup I described was not likely to have been expensive. It was part
of a public park that was set up and maintained completely by volunteers
and donations (and most of those volunteers were part of the 60+ club, so
I doubt they contributed much to the digging of the whole thing). I was
not privy to the costs, but given these facts I doubt it was that much
more expensive than your standard pond and waterfall. The stream was not
some huge river as you seem to be thinking it was, just about 15-20 feet
long and no more than a foot deep leading from the waterfalls to the pond.
The labor may have been an issue given the age of many of the volunteers,
but then it always is an issue when digging out a pond. The key here is to
think beforehand and plan. Just as it would not be wise to put the pond
where all the runoff collects, one should also consider the wildlife of
the area when designing the pond.

As for the attractiveness, the pond was quite attractive with its
surrounding landscaping. It used plants that were fine in deep water,
floating plants and in the case of the lilies, supported by columns too
narrow to allow much perching space. I'm sure a smaller heron could have
tried, but I never observed one bothering because the stream was far
easier to wade into.

> The stream was
>> teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
>> herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
>> in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
>> easy pickings.

> $$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry or
> small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of the
> pond itself?

What stream? The one I keep describing here that you called expensive in
the previous paragraph. Do try to keep up dear. The fish were not forced
to remain anywhere. The mosquito fish and fry could also be found in the
main pond and waterfall pools as well as along the stream. Nothing
restricted their movement so they were found everywhere, although the ones
found in the pools were probably sucked up by the pump and deposited there
unless they did salmon impressions and jumped upstream. The crayfish did
tend to stay in the stream, probably didn't like the drop at the end of
the stream into the pond.

> Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
>> suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
>> season, but it's easy to get more).

> $$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe you
> managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
> pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
> mosquito fish?

The water was not fast moving, so there was plenty of opportunity for
mosquito larva to breed. Just as water based larva occasionally will get
into indoor tanks if breeding gnats or mosquitos make it indoors, the
movement of the stream was insufficient to take care of the larva in and
of itself. Refer to prior paragraph as for fish movement between stream
and pond.

>> The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
>> other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
>> pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
>> partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
>> muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching the
>> herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I thought.

> $$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us who
> don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
> huge streams?

My, we are repetitive aren't we. This sort of language would get you
branded at the least excitable and at the worst a troll in another
newsgroup I visit. For the moment, I will leave it at "excitable" in my
mind, but the line is quickly becoming blurred.

From:	~ Windsong ~
Subject:	Re: Herons & who has $10,000 for a pond ?
Date:	Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:42:59 -0600

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
news:cs6n00$2sd$1@skeeter.ucdavis.edu...
> In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ wrote:
> > "Cichlidiot" wrote in message
> > news:cs69q2$m3g$1@skeeter.ucdavis.edu...
> >> Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
> >> designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
> >> fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
> >> design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
> >> long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

> To quote one of my favorite characters... "my, but we are in a mood
> today". You do seem to be quite argumentative on this subject.

## Oh really? You're wrong. Do you always get so easily upset when someone
questions you?

I will make
> this one attempt at reason, but any more such illogical replies such as
> "if we were rich" will be summarily ignored.

## Ok, if we win the lottery or came into a large inheritance we can have
the experts come in and build your dream pond in our front yard.. After all
not everyone has an extra $10,000+ to spend on ponds as you seem to think
they do. Any such suggestions from you that they do will be summarily
ignored. :o)

> The setup I described was not likely to have been expensive. It was part
> of a public park that was set up and maintained completely by volunteers
> and donations (and most of those volunteers were part of the 60+ club, so
> I doubt they contributed much to the digging of the whole thing).

## Then why suggest this to a private pond owner? Not expensive for me?
Where would I get *donations* from? I would have to pay someone to come in
and redo the whole thing.

I was
> not privy to the costs, but given these facts I doubt it was that much
> more expensive than your standard pond and waterfall. The stream was not
> some huge river as you seem to be thinking it was, just about 15-20 feet
> long and no more than a foot deep leading from the waterfalls to the pond.

## And how much do they charge for your standard 2000 to 3000 gallon pond
and waterfall where you live? What did the liners alone cost? ONLY 15 to
20' stream? That "stream" liner marterial is another several hundred
dollars at least.

> The labor may have been an issue given the age of many of the volunteers,

## Here again - where would we find all these volunteers? Paying for what
you suggest would easily run around $8,000 to $10,000 or more where we live.
The water pump alone for such a setup would be well into the $500 range.
And you call me argumentative? LOL!!! Not everyone on this list has that
kind of money.

> but then it always is an issue when digging out a pond. The key here is to
> think beforehand and plan. Just as it would not be wise to put the pond
> where all the runoff collects, one should also consider the wildlife of
> the area when designing the pond.

## Since I had never seen water snakes, bullfrogs, King Fishers or herons
closely (where we live) we never gave them a thought. We started before I
got online so all we had to go by were books.

> > $$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry
or
> > small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of
the
> > pond itself?

> What stream?

## The one you claimed was 15 to 20 feet long and full of fish for the
herons.

The one I keep describing here that you called expensive in
> the previous paragraph. Do try to keep up dear. The fish were not forced
> to remain anywhere. The mosquito fish and fry could also be found in the
> main pond and waterfall pools as well as along the stream.

## Yes dear I am keeping up. You mentioned a stream, now you mention
waterfall pools. You're talking about a HUGE expensive system, not what
most people have in their yards.

Nothing
> restricted their movement so they were found everywhere, although the ones
> found in the pools were probably sucked up by the pump and deposited there
> unless they did salmon impressions and jumped upstream.

## So they passed through the impeller without harm? Must be a new type of
pump.

> > $$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe
you
> > managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
> > pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
> > mosquito fish?

> The water was not fast moving, so there was plenty of opportunity for
> mosquito larva to breed. Just as water based larva occasionally will get
> into indoor tanks if breeding gnats or mosquitos make it indoors, the
> movement of the stream was insufficient to take care of the larva in and
> of itself. Refer to prior paragraph as for fish movement between stream
> and pond.

## I see, so the water pump would suck them in and spit them back at the end
of the 15 to 20 foot stream that also fed waterfalls and pools.

> > $$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
who
> > don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
> > huge streams?

> My, we are repetitive aren't we.

## My but you keep refusing to answer the question until now. I've seen
many ponds with streams in the past 9 years and never saw any of the fish go
UP the streams. They stayed in the pond itself whether there was a
waterfall or not.

This sort of language would get you
> branded at the least excitable and at the worst a troll in another
> newsgroup I visit.

## I couldn't care less about your other NGs since I am here. It's obvious
you think everyone has unlimited income to hire professionals to put in
ponds with 20' streams, special water pumps that do not harm fish,
waterfalls with pools, and then load them with mosquito fish to attract
herons away from their koi and GF. Would be nice if we all could afford
such a luxuries.... :o)

For the moment, I will leave it at "excitable" in my
> mind, but the line is quickly becoming blurred.

## Killfile me! :o)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:	Roy
Subject:	Re: Herons & who has $10,000 for a pond ?
Date:	Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:19:51 GMT

yet another with a fast kill file finger! The only requirement to get
killl filed is dissagree with the so called self professed pond gods /
goddesses. There is no discussion of things in these forums, its all
one sided Windsong, remember that, dissagree and you get rapped hard
and kill filed............

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:42:59 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
>===<>news:cs6n00$2sd$1@skeeter.ucdavis.edu...
>===<>> In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ wrote:
>===<>> > "Cichlidiot" wrote in message
>===<>> > news:cs69q2$m3g$1@skeeter.ucdavis.edu...
>===<>> >> Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
>===<>> >> designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
>===<>> >> fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
>===<>> >> design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
>===<>> >> long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.
>===<>
>===<>> To quote one of my favorite characters... "my, but we are in a mood
>===<>> today". You do seem to be quite argumentative on this subject.
>===<>
>===<>## Oh really? You're wrong. Do you always get so easily upset when someone
>===<>questions you?
>===<>
>===<>I will make
>===<>> this one attempt at reason, but any more such illogical replies such as
>===<>> "if we were rich" will be summarily ignored.
>===<>
>===<>## Ok, if we win the lottery or came into a large inheritance we can have
>===<>the experts come in and build your dream pond in our front yard.. After all
>===<>not everyone has an extra $10,000+ to spend on ponds as you seem to think
>===<>they do. Any such suggestions from you that they do will be summarily
>===<>ignored. :o)
>===<>
>===<>> The setup I described was not likely to have been expensive. It was part
>===<>> of a public park that was set up and maintained completely by volunteers
>===<>> and donations (and most of those volunteers were part of the 60+ club, so
>===<>> I doubt they contributed much to the digging of the whole thing).
>===<>
>===<>## Then why suggest this to a private pond owner? Not expensive for me?
>===<>Where would I get *donations* from? I would have to pay someone to come in
>===<>and redo the whole thing.
>===<>
>===<>I was
>===<>> not privy to the costs, but given these facts I doubt it was that much
>===<>> more expensive than your standard pond and waterfall. The stream was not
>===<>> some huge river as you seem to be thinking it was, just about 15-20 feet
>===<>> long and no more than a foot deep leading from the waterfalls to the pond.
>===<>
>===<>## And how much do they charge for your standard 2000 to 3000 gallon pond
>===<>and waterfall where you live? What did the liners alone cost? ONLY 15 to
>===<>20' stream? That "stream" liner marterial is another several hundred
>===<>dollars at least.
>===<>
>===<>> The labor may have been an issue given the age of many of the volunteers,
>===<>
>===<>## Here again - where would we find all these volunteers? Paying for what
>===<>you suggest would easily run around $8,000 to $10,000 or more where we live.
>===<>The water pump alone for such a setup would be well into the $500 range.
>===<>And you call me argumentative? LOL!!! Not everyone on this list has that
>===<>kind of money.
>===<>
>===<>> but then it always is an issue when digging out a pond. The key here is to
>===<>> think beforehand and plan. Just as it would not be wise to put the pond
>===<>> where all the runoff collects, one should also consider the wildlife of
>===<>> the area when designing the pond.
>===<>
>===<>## Since I had never seen water snakes, bullfrogs, King Fishers or herons
>===<>closely (where we live) we never gave them a thought. We started before I
>===<>got online so all we had to go by were books.
>===<>
>===<>> > $$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry
>===<>or
>===<>> > small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of
>===<>the
>===<>> > pond itself?
>===<>
>===<>> What stream?
>===<>
>===<>## The one you claimed was 15 to 20 feet long and full of fish for the
>===<>herons.
>===<>
>===<>The one I keep describing here that you called expensive in
>===<>> the previous paragraph. Do try to keep up dear. The fish were not forced
>===<>> to remain anywhere. The mosquito fish and fry could also be found in the
>===<>> main pond and waterfall pools as well as along the stream.
>===<>
>===<>## Yes dear I am keeping up. You mentioned a stream, now you mention
>===<>waterfall pools. You're talking about a HUGE expensive system, not what
>===<>most people have in their yards.
>===<>
>===<>Nothing
>===<>> restricted their movement so they were found everywhere, although the ones
>===<>> found in the pools were probably sucked up by the pump and deposited there
>===<>> unless they did salmon impressions and jumped upstream.
>===<>
>===<>## So they passed through the impeller without harm? Must be a new type of
>===<>pump.
>===<>
>===<>> > $$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe
>===<>you
>===<>> > managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
>===<>> > pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
>===<>> > mosquito fish?
>===<>
>===<>> The water was not fast moving, so there was plenty of opportunity for
>===<>> mosquito larva to breed. Just as water based larva occasionally will get
>===<>> into indoor tanks if breeding gnats or mosquitos make it indoors, the
>===<>> movement of the stream was insufficient to take care of the larva in and
>===<>> of itself. Refer to prior paragraph as for fish movement between stream
>===<>> and pond.
>===<>
>===<>## I see, so the water pump would suck them in and spit them back at the end
>===<>of the 15 to 20 foot stream that also fed waterfalls and pools.
>===<>
>===<>> > $$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
>===<>who
>===<>> > don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
>===<>> > huge streams?
>===<>
>===<>> My, we are repetitive aren't we.
>===<>
>===<>## My but you keep refusing to answer the question until now. I've seen
>===<>many ponds with streams in the past 9 years and never saw any of the fish go
>===<>UP the streams. They stayed in the pond itself whether there was a
>===<>waterfall or not.
>===<>
>===<>This sort of language would get you
>===<>> branded at the least excitable and at the worst a troll in another
>===<>> newsgroup I visit.
>===<>
>===<>## I couldn't care less about your other NGs since I am here. It's obvious
>===<>you think everyone has unlimited income to hire professionals to put in
>===<>ponds with 20' streams, special water pumps that do not harm fish,
>===<>waterfalls with pools, and then load them with mosquito fish to attract
>===<>herons away from their koi and GF. Would be nice if we all could afford
>===<>such a luxuries.... :o)
>===<>
>===<>For the moment, I will leave it at "excitable" in my
>===<>> mind, but the line is quickly becoming blurred.
>===<>
>===<>## Killfile me! :o)

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Sooooooooooooooooolow to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

From:	~ Windsong ~
Subject:	Re: Herons & who has $10,000 for a pond ?
Date:	Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:32:03 -0600

"Roy" wrote in message
news:41e7b782.4041955@news.east.earthlink.net...
>
> yet another with a fast kill file finger! The only requirement to get
> killl filed is dissagree with the so called self professed pond gods /
> goddesses. There is no discussion of things in these forums, its all
> one sided Windsong, remember that, dissagree and you get rapped hard
> and kill filed............
======================
That's life I guess. Personally, I couldn't care less who killfiles me.
:-)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Due to financial crisis the light at the end
of the tunnel is switched off."
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~