An article in the newest issue of KOI USA, by a club member that lives in
Maryland, is very good look at pond deicers, air stones, and pumps. He
argues that you should not use deicers, since they do not create a current
and water low in oxygen, high in carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide and
methane will develop in the bottom of the pond. The densest pure fresh
water occurs at 39 degrees F and will fall to the bottom and stay there,
building levels of pollution which can stress, if not kill the fish. A
bubbler, or a pump, located at the bottom of the pond, forcing water to the
surface will take the warmer water and help to melt the ice, but more
importantly, give good gas exchange for the water at the bottom of the pond.
There will be some cooling of the bottom water, by its mixing with the
colder surface water, but the amount is dependent on the size of the pump.
A small pump will not expose large quantities of water to the mixing action.
I think he uses 750 gph pumps. The ground will continue to provide some
heat to the bottom of the pond, keeping it near the 39 degree level.

He also recommended that the salt level in the pond during the winter be no
more than 0.1%, since salt lowers the freezing point, but it also lowers the
temperature difference between temperature of maximum density and freezing
point, so the fish do not have 7 degrees from bottom of pond to surface, but
maybe 4 or 5 degrees.

Around here, in Virginia, most people keep the pumps and filters running all
winter, but we seldom get extended periods of sub-freezing weather. Ice on
the ponds will rarely last more than a week.

Of course as I write this it is 72 degrees outside, record 75 today, but a
front that will bring most of the ponds here some ice within a few days.
The koi and gold fish have a shock coming.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

From:	Crashj
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:28:40 GMT

On or about Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:14:39 -0500, "RichToyBox"
wrote something like:

>An article in the newest issue of KOI USA, by a club member that lives in
>Maryland, is very good look at pond deicers, air stones, and pumps. He
>argues that you should not use deicers, since they do not create a current
>and water low in oxygen, high in carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide and
>methane will develop in the bottom of the pond. The densest pure fresh
>water occurs at 39 degrees F and will fall to the bottom and stay there,
>building levels of pollution which can stress, if not kill the fish. A
>bubbler, or a pump, located at the bottom of the pond, forcing water to the
>surface will take the warmer water and help to melt the ice, but more
>importantly, give good gas exchange for the water at the bottom of the pond.
<>
All good in theory, but I want data! Of course one man's data is
another man's garbage out. I am not going to rush outside and move my
bubbler to the bottom tonight.
--
Crashj

From:	Nedra
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Sun, 16 Jan 2005 01:22:35 GMT

I don't know about data, crash ... I do know I have 9 years of winters to
draw my own
conclusions ;-) I wouldn't want to insist that my way is the best or only
way but
it has worked for me. - - I have the De Icer going along with two airstones
that
are up about 4 inches from the top of the pond. The fish are all snuggled
at the bottom of
the pond. My pond is about 13 X 15 feet and is almost 3 feet deep. I don't
know
what the temp is as it is covered with a net that has snow on parts of it -
making it too
heavy to lift.... wouldn't at this point in time anyway.
Everyone will have to follow his own lead on this one.

Nedra in Missouri

"Crashj" wrote in message
news:rhhgu0pcm6nrkj4egg6m1kd4mjgbrag8th@4ax.com...
> On or about Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:14:39 -0500, "RichToyBox"
> wrote something like:
>
> >An article in the newest issue of KOI USA, by a club member that lives in
> >Maryland, is very good look at pond deicers, air stones, and pumps. He
> >argues that you should not use deicers, since they do not create a
current
> >and water low in oxygen, high in carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide and
> >methane will develop in the bottom of the pond. The densest pure fresh
> >water occurs at 39 degrees F and will fall to the bottom and stay there,
> >building levels of pollution which can stress, if not kill the fish. A
> >bubbler, or a pump, located at the bottom of the pond, forcing water to
the
> >surface will take the warmer water and help to melt the ice, but more
> >importantly, give good gas exchange for the water at the bottom of the
pond.
> <>
> All good in theory, but I want data! Of course one man's data is
> another man's garbage out. I am not going to rush outside and move my
> bubbler to the bottom tonight.
> --
> Crashj

From:	Crashj
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:22:18 GMT

On or about Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:14:39 -0500, "RichToyBox"
wrote something like:
<>
>Of course as I write this it is 72 degrees outside, record 75 today, but a
>front that will bring most of the ponds here some ice within a few days.
>The koi and gold fish have a shock coming.

yes, and how much of a problem will this be? Does anyone really know?
I suspect we all will soon enough.
Outside air was 59*F at 1100 PM Thursday, 44*F right now (521 PM
Friday). We've had over 2" rain this week. Pond water is 38*F and it
had three inches of ice on it at two weeks ago. The fish were tranquil
and at rest at the bottom. Now they are moving around seeking , who
knows what.
Forcast is for Winter to return overnight. I fear for the worst.
--
Crashj

From:	John Bachman
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:37:42 -0500

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:22:18 GMT, Crashj

wrote:

>On or about Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:14:39 -0500, "RichToyBox"
> wrote something like:
><>
>>Of course as I write this it is 72 degrees outside, record 75 today, but a
>>front that will bring most of the ponds here some ice within a few days.
>>The koi and gold fish have a shock coming.
>
>yes, and how much of a problem will this be? Does anyone really know?
>I suspect we all will soon enough.
>Outside air was 59*F at 1100 PM Thursday, 44*F right now (521 PM
>Friday). We've had over 2" rain this week. Pond water is 38*F and it
>had three inches of ice on it at two weeks ago. The fish were tranquil
>and at rest at the bottom. Now they are moving around seeking , who
>knows what.
>Forcast is for Winter to return overnight. I fear for the worst.

One of water's characteristics is a high specific heat. In other
words, it takes a lot of heat to raise the temperature of a body of
water and a lot of cold to drop it. Hence a brief warm spell followed
by a return to seasonal temperatures has little effect on the water
temperature in a 1000 gallon pond.

This characteristic moderates air temperature variations and the fish
do not even feel it.

JMHO

John

From:	~ Windsong ~
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:46:33 -0600

"John Bachman" wrote in message
news:r07iu0hcu9ugvq4rb1s1c34rjeb678rkd6@4ax.com...
>
> One of water's characteristics is a high specific heat. In other
> words, it takes a lot of heat to raise the temperature of a body of
> water and a lot of cold to drop it. Hence a brief warm spell followed
> by a return to seasonal temperatures has little effect on the water
> temperature in a 1000 gallon pond.

## I don't know about that. After a few warmer days here my GF and koi are
at the surface nibbling the thickest algae on the liner. The water must
"turn" as they stay away from the cooler bottom at these times. Then it
takes one or two cold, below freezing days to have them all on the bottom
again. One pond is approx. 800 gallons and the other 2,000 gallons.

> This characteristic moderates air temperature variations and the fish
> do not even feel it.

## I think my fish might disagree.....

> JMHO
>
> John
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Due to financial crisis the light at the end
of the tunnel is switched off."
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:	John Bachman
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:13:18 -0500

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:46:33 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" wrote:

>
>"John Bachman" wrote in message
>news:r07iu0hcu9ugvq4rb1s1c34rjeb678rkd6@4ax.com...
>>
>> One of water's characteristics is a high specific heat. In other
>> words, it takes a lot of heat to raise the temperature of a body of
>> water and a lot of cold to drop it. Hence a brief warm spell followed
>> by a return to seasonal temperatures has little effect on the water
>> temperature in a 1000 gallon pond.
>
>## I don't know about that. After a few warmer days here my GF and koi are
>at the surface nibbling the thickest algae on the liner. The water must
>"turn" as they stay away from the cooler bottom at these times. Then it
>takes one or two cold, below freezing days to have them all on the bottom
>again. One pond is approx. 800 gallons and the other 2,000 gallons.

I suppose that a sunny day with elevated air temperatures would warm
the surface water some. What happens then depends upon the water
temperature before warming. If the upper level is above 39 degrees F
(the temp at which water is most dense) it would sink as it approached
39 F. I would expect that the fish would not notice that much.

But if the surface water temperature was above 39F before warming, it
would tend to stay there and increase in temperature. The fish would
then be expected to migrate to the warm surface and become more active
there.

JMHO but critters do not know much science, just what they like and do
not like.

John
The speed of time is approximately one second per second.

From:	~ Windsong ~
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:15:47 -0600

"John Bachman" wrote in message
news:v2uiu0d46v2b6ah7p58738od8nmpmfadul@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:46:33 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" wrote:

> But if the surface water temperature was above 39F before warming, it
> would tend to stay there and increase in temperature. The fish would
> then be expected to migrate to the warm surface and become more active
> there.

## I never did bother to check the exact temps at these times. In fact I
can't even find my thermometer out there. It probably "fell in" again. :-)

> JMHO but critters do not know much science, just what they like and do
> not like.
>
> John
> The speed of time is approximately one second per second.
>
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:	~ jan JJsPond.us
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:46:31 -0800

>On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:15:47 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" wrote:

>## I never did bother to check the exact temps at these times. In fact I
>can't even find my thermometer out there. It probably "fell in" again. :-)

Carol, next birthday, Mother's Day, or at least next Christmas you've got
to ask for one of these wireless thermometer. They are SO cool. I can watch
my pond temp from my desk. So when I turned on the pond heater, and the
pond was right at 32*F (+ or - as I've yet to check it accuracy exactly) it
brought it up to 34*F so I turned it off. I suspect it runs pretty constant
due to the slow flow of water around it. I turned it off about 5 hours ago
and I'm down to 33.8*F and the air temp is 18*F with snow falling. I'm
hoping I'll get a good snow cover on the screens again and it will stop
falling, due to the insulating factor.

Anyway, just a thought. :o) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

From:	~ Windsong ~
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:45:10 -0600

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
news:ohaju0d0cm22se0fr9o5j8hllfer38m39r@4ax.com...
> >On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:15:47 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" wrote:
>
> >## I never did bother to check the exact temps at these times. In fact
I
> >can't even find my thermometer out there. It probably "fell in" again.
:-)

> Carol, next birthday, Mother's Day, or at least next Christmas you've got
> to ask for one of these wireless thermometer. They are SO cool. I can
watch
> my pond temp from my desk. So when I turned on the pond heater, and the
> pond was right at 32*F (+ or - as I've yet to check it accuracy exactly)
it
> brought it up to 34*F so I turned it off. I suspect it runs pretty
constant
> due to the slow flow of water around it. I turned it off about 5 hours ago
> and I'm down to 33.8*F and the air temp is 18*F with snow falling. I'm
> hoping I'll get a good snow cover on the screens again and it will stop
> falling, due to the insulating factor.
>
> Anyway, just a thought. :o) ~ jan
===========================
I'll mention it to my husband. Mine usually ends up at the bottom of the
pond until I make the effort to net it out.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:	Reynolds.Keith at gmail.com
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	19 Jan 2005 18:31:31 -0800

An article in the newest issue of KOI USA, by a club member that lives
in
Maryland, is very good look at pond deicers, air stones, and pumps. He
argues that you should not use deicers, since they do not create a
current
and water low in oxygen, high in carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide and
methane will develop in the bottom of the pond. The densest pure fresh
water occurs at 39 degrees F and will fall to the bottom and stay
there,
building levels of pollution which can stress, if not kill the fish. A
bubbler, or a pump, located at the bottom of the pond, forcing water to
the
surface will take the warmer water and help to melt the ice, but more
importantly, give good gas exchange for the water at the bottom of the
pond.
There will be some cooling of the bottom water, by its mixing with the
colder surface water, but the amount is dependent on the size of the
pump.
A small pump will not expose large quantities of water to the mixing
action.
I think he uses 750 gph pumps. The ground will continue to provide some

heat to the bottom of the pond, keeping it near the 39 degree level.
-------------------------------------------

I am trying to figure out why the 750 gph pump description for an air
pump. I am wondering if anyone will come up with my idea for keeping a
deicing simular to this. I did send it in a couple emails. And just
waiting for the idea to hit here without my help. But I am a novice
pond person.

Keith

From:	John Bachman
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Fri, 14 Jan 2005 07:41:17 -0500

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:14:39 -0500, "RichToyBox"
wrote:

>An article in the newest issue of KOI USA, by a club member that lives in
>Maryland, is very good look at pond deicers, air stones, and pumps. He
>argues that you should not use deicers, since they do not create a current
>and water low in oxygen, high in carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide and
>methane will develop in the bottom of the pond. The densest pure fresh
>water occurs at 39 degrees F and will fall to the bottom and stay there,
>building levels of pollution which can stress, if not kill the fish. A
>bubbler, or a pump, located at the bottom of the pond, forcing water to the
>surface will take the warmer water and help to melt the ice, but more
>importantly, give good gas exchange for the water at the bottom of the pond.
>There will be some cooling of the bottom water, by its mixing with the
>colder surface water, but the amount is dependent on the size of the pump.
>A small pump will not expose large quantities of water to the mixing action.
>I think he uses 750 gph pumps. The ground will continue to provide some
>heat to the bottom of the pond, keeping it near the 39 degree level.
>
>He also recommended that the salt level in the pond during the winter be no
>more than 0.1%, since salt lowers the freezing point, but it also lowers the
>temperature difference between temperature of maximum density and freezing
>point, so the fish do not have 7 degrees from bottom of pond to surface, but
>maybe 4 or 5 degrees.
>

That makes good sense to me. Here in NH we get considerable ice, 18"
last year and less so far this year. My pond is 40" deep at the
deepest and I keep a bubbler suspended about 6" from the bottom
running all winter.

This has worked good for 2 years now. The only fish I have lost have
been fry who manage to work their way into the skimmer box and then
cannot escape when the ice gets thick.

John

From:	Benign Vanilla
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:52:01 -0500

"RichToyBox" wrote in message
news:jbCdnd4BCL1ggXrcRVn-vw@comcast.com...

> Of course as I write this it is 72 degrees outside, record 75 today, but a
> front that will bring most of the ponds here some ice within a few days.
> The koi and gold fish have a shock coming.

72 last night. Going to be in the 30's tonigh. As Daffy would say,
"Ridikilus".

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

From:	Derek Broughton
Subject:	Re: Keeping ice open
Date:	Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:21:07 -0400

Benign Vanilla wrote:

>
> "RichToyBox" wrote in message
> news:jbCdnd4BCL1ggXrcRVn-vw@comcast.com...
>
>> Of course as I write this it is 72 degrees outside, record 75 today, but
>> a front that will bring most of the ponds here some ice within a few
>> days. The koi and gold fish have a shock coming.
>
> 72 last night. Going to be in the 30's tonigh. As Daffy would say,
> "Ridikilus".
>
And vice versa here, in Nova Scotia. -1C yesterday, 15C tonight.
--
derek