How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in a
new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the tests
show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

From:	~ Windsong ~
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:06:54 -0600

"Richard Holub" wrote in message
news:208Hd.1790$ZI2.1611@fe06.lga...
> How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in
a
> new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
> and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the
tests
> show some nitrite buil-up?
>
> 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>
> Rich
=========================
Your pond is very overcrowded. Koi, like goldfish produce a lot of waste.
You will need to build a much bigger pond and very soon if you want to keep
koi. You are doing massive daily water changes aren't you? If not the
ammonia will eventually kill all your fish.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:	Lilly
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	21 Jan 2005 10:49:31 -0800

I have several tanks, 2G, 5G and a 40G with tropicals and the 75 with 3
goldfish. Used to be that I had a whole room with roughly 35 tanks
dedicated to all sorts of tropicals and goldfish. After a few years of
endless upkeep, rearing fry, going through insane amounts of baby brine
shrimp and dry goods, I realized that I was doing more maintenance than
anything approaching fun. I trimmed it down to what I have now.

Nothing fancy here for kits, just basic hobby kits, mostly the Tetra
brand. The numbers I gave in an earlier post are just calculated from a
one reagent Tetra ammonia kit, the conversion factor is printed on the
back. I'm not nearly geeky enough to mess with the pH pens/probes and
the like. Now, if it's computer related items, call me a geek because I
qualify with all the computers and peripherals that surround my work
area. ;-)

Years ago somebody turned me on to Kent products. I like them, they
work well and consistently. That's about as much as anybody can ask
for.

Lilly

humBill wrote:
> Hi Lily - This is a bit off topic but I'm guessing with your
references to
> Kent and fancy test to measure the potentcy of ammonia you also have
> aquariums. Just curious what you have and what your pets in there
are?
> Bill

From:	Newbie Bill
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:58:09 GMT

"Richard Holub" wrote in message
news:208Hd.1790$ZI2.1611@fe06.lga...
> How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in
> a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4
> weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that
> the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>
> 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>
> Rich

At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to bring bring
ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will probably
grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded as
much, certainly not a month.

Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing large
water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know the
specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water conditioners
binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is very
slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your pets
to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near 0. I
dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I would
definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My brother in
law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He complained
they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He still has
one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay sayer but a
few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that warm in
the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy goldfish
might be nice.
Good Luck!
Bill

>

From:	Lilly
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	20 Jan 2005 07:06:05 -0800

Over a pH of 7.0, ammonium (the not so toxic form) converts to ammonia.
Other influences that make ammonia more toxic are temperature and pH.
You also get better bacteria growth at higher pH's. At pH's lower than
7.0, ammonia is converted to ammonium but the lower the pH goes the
less active the bacteria become.

So, your pH of 7.2 means there is more toxic ammonia than non-toxic
ammonium. Your test kit probably has some way to calculate the real
amount of ammonia versus ammonium. I know my Tetra kit does, and it's
temperature and pH dependent.

For sake of argument we'll use a total reading of 3.0 (not an
unreasonable number in cycling tanks), your pH of 7.2, and an assumed
temperature of 72F (because that's as low as my Tetra chart goes ;-).
The factor that applies in this case is .0072. Thus, the reading of 3,
times the factor of .0072, gives you a calculated ammonia reading of
0.0216. While any ammonia is bad, there is a certain threshold level
that is really bad. On the back of my kit it says "Calculated levels
below 0.05ppm are safe." If you were to change the pH to 6.6 with the
same temperature and ammonia reading parameters, the calculated level
is 0.003, much less ammonia and more ammonium. Does this make it
somewhat clearer?

Also, be careful with those ammonia locking concoctions. I know for a
fact that the old AmQuel if you use it willy-nilly will drop the pH
like a rock down to nearly untestable levels.

Lilly

From:	Lilly
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	19 Jan 2005 08:51:53 -0800

If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
they're just not used to bacteria.

Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
7.0 threshold.

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
> "Richard Holub" wrote in message
> news:208Hd.1790$ZI2.1611@fe06.lga...
> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
nitrite/nitrate in
> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
approximately 4
> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
that
> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
> >
> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
> >
> > Rich
>
> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
bring bring
> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
probably
> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
as
> much, certainly not a month.
>
> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
large
> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
the
> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
conditioners
> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
very
> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
pets
> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
0. I
> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
would
> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
brother in
> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
complained
> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
still has
> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
sayer but a
> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
warm in
> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
goldfish
> might be nice.
> Good Luck!
> Bill
>
> >

From:	Richard Holub
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:07:16 -0500

OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I try
to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH is on
the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is that
better?

Rich

"Lilly" wrote in message
news:1106153513.909094.73190@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
> a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
> an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
> more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
> nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
> they're just not used to bacteria.
>
> Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
> to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
> with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
> carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
> pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
> 7.0 threshold.
>
> Lilly
>
> Newbie Bill wrote:
>> "Richard Holub" wrote in message
>> news:208Hd.1790$ZI2.1611@fe06.lga...
>> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
> nitrite/nitrate in
>> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
> approximately 4
>> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
> that
>> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>> >
>> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>> >
>> > Rich
>>
>> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
> bring bring
>> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
>> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
> probably
>> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
> as
>> much, certainly not a month.
>>
>> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
> large
>> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
> the
>> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
> conditioners
>> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
> very
>> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
> pets
>> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
> 0. I
>> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
> would
>> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
> brother in
>> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
> complained
>> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
> still has
>> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
> sayer but a
>> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
> warm in
>> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
> goldfish
>> might be nice.
>> Good Luck!
>> Bill
>>
>> >
>

From:	Newbie Bill
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:04:00 GMT

Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will say to
not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to change the
natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I also
believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change your
water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call it 2
bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
Have Fun!!
Bill Brister

"Richard Holub" wrote in message
news:dbNHd.662$rA1.224@fe03.lga...
> OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I
> try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH
> is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
> that better?
>
> Rich
>
>
> "Lilly" wrote in message
> news:1106153513.909094.73190@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
>> a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
>> an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
>> more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
>> nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
>> they're just not used to bacteria.
>>
>> Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
>> to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
>> with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
>> carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
>> pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
>> 7.0 threshold.
>>
>> Lilly
>>
>> Newbie Bill wrote:
>>> "Richard Holub" wrote in message
>>> news:208Hd.1790$ZI2.1611@fe06.lga...
>>> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
>> nitrite/nitrate in
>>> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
>> approximately 4
>>> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
>> that
>>> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>>> >
>>> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>> >
>>> > Rich
>>>
>>> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
>> bring bring
>>> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
>>> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
>> probably
>>> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
>> as
>>> much, certainly not a month.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
>> large
>>> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
>> the
>>> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
>> conditioners
>>> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
>> very
>>> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
>> pets
>>> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
>> 0. I
>>> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
>> would
>>> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
>> brother in
>>> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
>> complained
>>> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
>> still has
>>> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
>> sayer but a
>>> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
>> warm in
>>> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
>> goldfish
>>> might be nice.
>>> Good Luck!
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> >
>>
>
>

From:	Richard Holub
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:35:28 -0500

Thats my plan. I just did a 88 % water change. The pH is 7.2 right out of
the well but the ammonia is still (brought down to) .50 ppm. Still NO
NITRITE!!!!!!! Fish are swimming fine, nibbling at my fingers, but no
notice on bacterial change!? In two days...if ammonia increases I HAVE to
add AMMOLOCK.

Rich
"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
news:4yYHd.4318$2e7.4170@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will say
> to not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to change
> the natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I also
> believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change
> your water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
> it 2 bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
> Have Fun!!
> Bill Brister
>
> "Richard Holub" wrote in message
> news:dbNHd.662$rA1.224@fe03.lga...
>> OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I
>> try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH
>> is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
>> that better?
>>
>> Rich
>>
>>
>> "Lilly" wrote in message
>> news:1106153513.909094.73190@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>> If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
>>> a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
>>> an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
>>> more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
>>> nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
>>> they're just not used to bacteria.
>>>
>>> Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
>>> to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
>>> with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
>>> carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
>>> pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
>>> 7.0 threshold.
>>>
>>> Lilly
>>>
>>> Newbie Bill wrote:
>>>> "Richard Holub" wrote in message
>>>> news:208Hd.1790$ZI2.1611@fe06.lga...
>>>> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
>>> nitrite/nitrate in
>>>> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
>>> approximately 4
>>>> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
>>> that
>>>> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>>>> >
>>>> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>>> >
>>>> > Rich
>>>>
>>>> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
>>> bring bring
>>>> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
>>>> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
>>> probably
>>>> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
>>> as
>>>> much, certainly not a month.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
>>> large
>>>> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
>>> the
>>>> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
>>> conditioners
>>>> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
>>> very
>>>> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
>>> pets
>>>> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
>>> 0. I
>>>> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
>>> would
>>>> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
>>> brother in
>>>> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
>>> complained
>>>> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
>>> still has
>>>> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
>>> sayer but a
>>>> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
>>> warm in
>>>> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
>>> goldfish
>>>> might be nice.
>>>> Good Luck!
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

From:	~ jan JJsPond.us
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:49:48 -0800

I'd use more Ammolock and less water changes of such high percentages. I'm
wondering if your Ammolock is good enough. Does this stuff have an
expiration date? I prefer the dry forms of this chemical. ~ jan

>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:35:28 -0500, "Richard Holub" wrote:

>Thats my plan. I just did a 88 % water change. The pH is 7.2 right out of
>the well but the ammonia is still (brought down to) .50 ppm. Still NO
>NITRITE!!!!!!! Fish are swimming fine, nibbling at my fingers, but no
>notice on bacterial change!? In two days...if ammonia increases I HAVE to
>add AMMOLOCK.
>
>Rich
>"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
>news:4yYHd.4318$2e7.4170@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>> Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will say
>> to not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to change
>> the natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I also
>> believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change
>> your water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
>> it 2 bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
>> Have Fun!!
>> Bill Brister
>>
>> "Richard Holub" wrote in message
>> news:dbNHd.662$rA1.224@fe03.lga...
>>> OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I
>>> try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH
>>> is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
>>> that better?
>>>
>>> Rich
>>>
>>>
>>> "Lilly" wrote in message
>>> news:1106153513.909094.73190@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>> If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
>>>> a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
>>>> an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
>>>> more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
>>>> nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
>>>> they're just not used to bacteria.
>>>>
>>>> Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
>>>> to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
>>>> with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
>>>> carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
>>>> pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
>>>> 7.0 threshold.
>>>>
>>>> Lilly
>>>>
>>>> Newbie Bill wrote:
>>>>> "Richard Holub" wrote in message
>>>>> news:208Hd.1790$ZI2.1611@fe06.lga...
>>>>> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
>>>> nitrite/nitrate in
>>>>> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
>>>> approximately 4
>>>>> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
>>>> that
>>>>> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Rich
>>>>>
>>>>> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
>>>> bring bring
>>>>> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
>>>>> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
>>>> probably
>>>>> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
>>>> as
>>>>> much, certainly not a month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
>>>> large
>>>>> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
>>>> the
>>>>> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
>>>> conditioners
>>>>> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
>>>> very
>>>>> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
>>>> pets
>>>>> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
>>>> 0. I
>>>>> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
>>>> would
>>>>> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
>>>> brother in
>>>>> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
>>>> complained
>>>>> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
>>>> still has
>>>>> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
>>>> sayer but a
>>>>> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
>>>> warm in
>>>>> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
>>>> goldfish
>>>>> might be nice.
>>>>> Good Luck!
>>>>> Bill
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

From:	Richard Holub
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:40:41 -0500

I was looking for some of the dry stuff but could not find it. Date is
good.

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
news:ao51v0l8dh3kubjnldtucbog9j2e1ee2qt@4ax.com...
> I'd use more Ammolock and less water changes of such high percentages. I'm
> wondering if your Ammolock is good enough. Does this stuff have an
> expiration date? I prefer the dry forms of this chemical. ~ jan
>
>>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:35:28 -0500, "Richard Holub"
>>wrote:
>
>>Thats my plan. I just did a 88 % water change. The pH is 7.2 right out
>>of
>>the well but the ammonia is still (brought down to) .50 ppm. Still NO
>>NITRITE!!!!!!! Fish are swimming fine, nibbling at my fingers, but no
>>notice on bacterial change!? In two days...if ammonia increases I HAVE to
>>add AMMOLOCK.
>>
>>Rich
>>"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
>>news:4yYHd.4318$2e7.4170@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>>> Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will
>>> say
>>> to not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to
>>> change
>>> the natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I
>>> also
>>> believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change
>>> your water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
>>> it 2 bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
>>> Have Fun!!
>>> Bill Brister
>>>
>>> "Richard Holub" wrote in message
>>> news:dbNHd.662$rA1.224@fe03.lga...
>>>> OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If
>>>> I
>>>> try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the
>>>> pH
>>>> is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
>>>> that better?
>>>>
>>>> Rich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Lilly" wrote in message
>>>> news:1106153513.909094.73190@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
>>>>> a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
>>>>> an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
>>>>> more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
>>>>> nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
>>>>> they're just not used to bacteria.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
>>>>> to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
>>>>> with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
>>>>> carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
>>>>> pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
>>>>> 7.0 threshold.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lilly
>>>>>
>>>>> Newbie Bill wrote:
>>>>>> "Richard Holub" wrote in message
>>>>>> news:208Hd.1790$ZI2.1611@fe06.lga...
>>>>>> > How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
>>>>> nitrite/nitrate in
>>>>>> > a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
>>>>> approximately 4
>>>>>> > weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
>>>>> that
>>>>>> > the tests show some nitrite buil-up?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Rich
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
>>>>> bring bring
>>>>>> ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
>>>>>> nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
>>>>> probably
>>>>>> grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
>>>>> as
>>>>>> much, certainly not a month.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
>>>>> large
>>>>>> water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
>>>>> the
>>>>>> specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
>>>>> conditioners
>>>>>> binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
>>>>> very
>>>>>> slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
>>>>> pets
>>>>>> to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
>>>>> 0. I
>>>>>> dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
>>>>> would
>>>>>> definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
>>>>> brother in
>>>>>> law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
>>>>> complained
>>>>>> they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
>>>>> still has
>>>>>> one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
>>>>> sayer but a
>>>>>> few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
>>>>> warm in
>>>>>> the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
>>>>> goldfish
>>>>>> might be nice.
>>>>>> Good Luck!
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

From:	~ jan JJsPond.us
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:52:13 -0800

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:40:41 -0500, "Richard Holub"
wrote:

>I was looking for some of the dry stuff but could not find it. Date is
>good.
>
>Rich

I got mine from Shari's Petal & Ponds - ChorAM-X the 5 lb. pail:
http://tech-geeks.org/tiny.php?url=3450 when you need to replenish.

Now, forgive my memory... but what was (or is) the problem you're having?

~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

From:	Lilly
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	21 Jan 2005 08:34:48 -0800

I would be thrilled if the water out of my tap stayed stable at any
reasonable pH. The water here has less than 1 dkH buffering, and is
super soft too (<1 dgH). Because of the natural chemistry of my water,
I have to add product to keep it fish-safe. The weapon of choice for me
is RO Right and a buffer, both from Kent. If I left it alone, and I did
when I first moved here, the pH would plummet to levels regular hobby
kits can't measure (<5).

If I had stable 7.2 water, I would leave it alone. The KISS approach
makes for healthier and happier fish over the long run. The more you
tweak a system, the more places it has to go wrong. JMHO of course :-)

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
> Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will
say to
> not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to
change the
> natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I
also
> believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH.
Change your
> water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
it 2
> bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
> Have Fun!!
> Bill Brister

From:	humBill
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:16:05 GMT

Hi Lily - This is a bit off topic but I'm guessing with your references to
Kent and fancy test to measure the potentcy of ammonia you also have
aquariums. Just curious what you have and what your pets in there are?
Bill

"Lilly" wrote in message
news:1106325288.545235.188900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>I would be thrilled if the water out of my tap stayed stable at any
> reasonable pH. The water here has less than 1 dkH buffering, and is
> super soft too (<1 dgH). Because of the natural chemistry of my water,
> I have to add product to keep it fish-safe. The weapon of choice for me
> is RO Right and a buffer, both from Kent. If I left it alone, and I did
> when I first moved here, the pH would plummet to levels regular hobby
> kits can't measure (<5).
>
> If I had stable 7.2 water, I would leave it alone. The KISS approach
> makes for healthier and happier fish over the long run. The more you
> tweak a system, the more places it has to go wrong. JMHO of course :-)
>
> Lilly
>
> Newbie Bill wrote:
>> Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will
> say to
>> not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to
> change the
>> natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I
> also
>> believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH.
> Change your
>> water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
> it 2
>> bits worth to compensate for inflation:)
>> Have Fun!!
>> Bill Brister
>

From:	Lilly
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	20 Jan 2005 07:43:33 -0800

One other thing. I should have illustrated the higher pH for you. A
total reading of 3, at a temp of 72F uses a factor of 0.0179 at a pH of
7.6. That would give you a reading of 0.0537, which is not "safe". So
you can see that fairly subtle changes in this relationship can nearly
eliminate most of the toxic form, or make it higher.

Like I said, any ammonia is bad. I'll bet that the fish don't really
care about the difference betwee 0.04 and 0.05, they just know it's
nasty. ;-)

From:	~ jan JJsPond.us
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:01:16 -0800

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:16:10 -0500, "Richard Holub"
wrote:

>How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in a
>new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
>and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the tests
>show some nitrite buil-up?
>
>160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>
>Rich
>
Usually a drip system gets going faster than others, and I would expect by
4 weeks you would be seeing improvements. How are you managing the ammonia?
This could be the problem. What is the pH? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

From:	Cichlidiot
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:04:17 +0000 (UTC)

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:16:10 -0500, "Richard Holub"
> wrote:

>>How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in a
>>new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
>>and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the tests
>>show some nitrite buil-up?
>>
>>160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>
>>Rich
>>
> Usually a drip system gets going faster than others, and I would expect by
> 4 weeks you would be seeing improvements. How are you managing the ammonia?
> This could be the problem. What is the pH? ~ jan

Agreed, something should be happening with the nitrifying bacteria by 4
weeks. I wonder though, exactly how much ammonia are you reading? People
who have tried fishless cycling in aquariums have found that high levels
of ammonia seem to prolong or even stall the growth of the bacterial
colonies. Usually this happens over 5ppm ammonia from what I've read of
the accounts, but that's also at aquarium temperatures. Might happen at a
lower level at lower temperatures.

It would also be worthwhile to verify that your test kits are still fresh
(most start giving bad readings after several years) by taking a sample of
water to an LFS to test. Nitrite kits I've found to be somewhat more
sensitive to age than ammonia kits. I have a several year master test kit
where the ammonia reagent is still fine, but the nitrite reagent stopped
giving reliable readings a year ago.

From:	Richard Holub
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:00:21 -0500

Ammonia being checked by adding AMMOLOCK every two days. Fish are better.
Water change every week.

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
news:fkjqu0559spga8r0dbjndni75qridb31r4@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:16:10 -0500, "Richard Holub"
> wrote:
>
>>How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in
>>a
>>new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
>>and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the
>>tests
>>show some nitrite buil-up?
>>
>>160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...
>>
>>Rich
>>
> Usually a drip system gets going faster than others, and I would expect by
> 4 weeks you would be seeing improvements. How are you managing the
> ammonia?
> This could be the problem. What is the pH? ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

From:	~ jan JJsPond.us
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:03:00 -0800

>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:00:21 -0500, "Richard Holub" wrote:

>Ammonia being checked by adding AMMOLOCK every two days. Fish are better.
>Water change every week.
>
Are you using a 2 bottle test kit for ammonia or a 1 bottle kit? If 1
bottle that's your problem. It reads both toxic and treated ammonia.
Whereas the 2 bottle test won't do that. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

From:	Richard Holub
Subject:	Re: Lots of AMMONIA, nothing else.
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:42:22 -0500

No...just using the two bottle. I didn't even know that there was a one
bottle test.

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
news:d2e0v0tfvu236ok3i04esai4b67qled4k4@4ax.com...
> >On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:00:21 -0500, "Richard Holub"
> > wrote:
>
>>Ammonia being checked by adding AMMOLOCK every two days. Fish are better.
>>Water change every week.
>>
> Are you using a 2 bottle test kit for ammonia or a 1 bottle kit? If 1
> bottle that's your problem. It reads both toxic and treated ammonia.
> Whereas the 2 bottle test won't do that. ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~