In a few short years we did a damn fine job de-Nazifying Germany.
It's way past due that we de-confederate the south.

I don't expect Southern bigots to understand why any more than I'd
expect Nazis to understand.

The rest of us should well remember that millions of human beings died
needlessly at the hands of the Nazis (and slave traders/slave owners),
and it's high time we stop glorifying them. They deserve to burn in
hell - and their flags and symbols with them. We should remember that
part of our past with shame.

JAKAL

D3331 wrote:
>
http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/06/confederate.dorm.ap/index.html
>
> I know it's not Skydiving related but this newsgroup is boring.

From:	Winsor Naugler III
Subject:	Re: Another attempt to erase history
Date:	Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:20:50 GMT

"JAKAL" wrote in message
news:1105942943.183817.148120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> In a few short years we did a damn fine job de-Nazifying Germany.
> It's way past due that we de-confederate the south.
>
> I don't expect Southern bigots to understand why any more than I'd
> expect Nazis to understand.
>
> The rest of us should well remember that millions of human beings died
> needlessly at the hands of the Nazis (and slave traders/slave owners),
> and it's high time we stop glorifying them. They deserve to burn in
> hell - and their flags and symbols with them. We should remember that
> part of our past with shame.
>
>
You speak as someone who has only had exposure to the pop versions of the
history of either the Third Reich or the Confederate States of America.

Nazi Germany certainly had blood on its hands, but was defeated by the
Soviet Union, who made the boys in Berlin look like Cub Scouts when it came
to butchery (despite English language histories, the war in Europe was
decided on the Eastern Front, not the West). The bombings of Guernica and
Rotterdam, which sparked outrage among the "civilized" nations of the world,
were trivial by comparison to Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne, Tokyo, Yokohama
and, of course, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Slavery was an odious institution, but existed in the NORTH *after* it was
"banned" in the South by the Emancipation Proclamation (some Federal
Generals were slave owners - Maryland and Delaware were slave states - and
the Emancipation Proclamation applied ONLY to the Confederacy).

Slavery was a fact in the sanctimonious North until it did not suit their
needs, and it was white SOUTHERNERS that made the Underground Railroad a
reality. The persistence of slavery in the South had more to do with
Goddamnedyankees being consummate assholes than of any inherent
characteristic of the South; had the Confederacy prevailed in secession, the
institution of Slavery could not have survived into the 20th Century. In
addition, the bulk of citizens who sought to defend their homes from the
murdering, thieving invaders from the North were not, and had no intention
of being, slave owners.

The bulk of Lee's army fought with honor in defense of their homes against
foreign aggressors. To denigrate their memory in total ignorance of the
facts involved is the sort of attitude that earns Goddamnedyankees the bad
name they deserve.

Blue skies,

Winsor

From:	lugnuts
Subject:	Re: Another attempt to erase history
Date:	Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:40:57 -0800

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:20:50 GMT, "Winsor Naugler III"
wrote:

> The bulk of Lee's army fought with honor in defense of their homes against
> foreign aggressors. To denigrate their memory in total ignorance of the
> facts involved is the sort of attitude that earns Goddamnedyankees the bad
> name they deserve.

The "Civil War" was an absolute necessity. Without it, the World Trade
Center towers would have been built in Atlanta, and the geology simply
won't support such tall structures there.

From:	bigjim
Subject:	Re: Another attempt to erase history
Date:	Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:57:01 -0800

To denigrate their memory in total ignorance of the
> facts involved is the sort of attitude that earns Goddamnedyankees the bad
> name they deserve.

I think that the South rose again when all the Yankees started moving down
here again in the 1980's and affecting phony Southern accents.

From:	Tom B
Subject:	Re: Another attempt to erase history
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:28:48 GMT

While I certainly would never try to honor the ugliness of Hitler et al. I
have no trouble at all honoring those millions of German men that were
drafted and thrust into a war they had no choice of participating in. Most
of these men fought honorably and bravely. Using one statistic, the very
high relative survival rate of allied POW's, not every aspect of the German
military was terrible, and not all of the Germans deserve to burn in hell. I
have seen and read many things that glorify the German Army, but no great
works that honor the SS. If you are going to burn the Germans in hell, what
are you going to do to the victors of W.W.I who put in place a system that
caused huge hardship in Germany and set the scene for a Hitler type to
emerge?

As for the Confederacy, if you think that flag is held just by bigots, you
need to get out more. The South's clinging to the identity of the stars and
bars has far more to do with what happened during Reconstruction, than the
war or slavery. Like what happened to Germany after W.W.I, the South was
raped for more than 20 years after the civil war. That created a mindset
that is not going to go away. Having dumb ass Yankees compare them at large
to Nazi's just keeps it going and going. Thanks for doing your part. By the
way, I live in Ohio, and I see no shortage of Confederate flags in windows,
vehicles, jackets, etc. It ain't just the South.

In once sense, keeping the image of the Confederacy alive is important to
your goals. Consider the idiots that keep arguing that the holocaust never
happened. Do you plan to similarly destroy the flags and symbols of the
Revolutionary War, started and run by men who were slave-owners, denied
suffrage, and in large part committed treason because they didn't like
paying taxes, at rates lower than those paid in England?

Tom B

"JAKAL" wrote in message
news:1105942943.183817.148120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> In a few short years we did a damn fine job de-Nazifying Germany.
> It's way past due that we de-confederate the south.
>
> I don't expect Southern bigots to understand why any more than I'd
> expect Nazis to understand.
>
> The rest of us should well remember that millions of human beings died
> needlessly at the hands of the Nazis (and slave traders/slave owners),
> and it's high time we stop glorifying them. They deserve to burn in
> hell - and their flags and symbols with them. We should remember that
> part of our past with shame.
>
> JAKAL
>
>
> D3331 wrote:
>>
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/06/confederate.dorm.ap/index.html
>>
>> I know it's not Skydiving related but this newsgroup is boring.
>

From:	David
Subject:	Re: Another attempt to erase history
Date:	17 Jan 2005 16:37:03 -0600

On 16 Jan 2005 22:22:23 -0800, "JAKAL" wrote:

>In a few short years we did a damn fine job de-Nazifying Germany.
>It's way past due that we de-confederate the south.
>
>I don't expect Southern bigots to understand why any more than I'd
>expect Nazis to understand.
>
>The rest of us should well remember that millions of human beings died
>needlessly at the hands of the Nazis (and slave traders/slave owners),
>and it's high time we stop glorifying them. They deserve to burn in
>hell - and their flags and symbols with them. We should remember that
>part of our past with shame.
>
>JAKAL
>
>
>D3331 wrote:
>>
>http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/06/confederate.dorm.ap/index.html
>>
>> I know it's not Skydiving related but this newsgroup is boring.

You're equating the United Daughters of the Confederacy to Nazis?

What happened, did the already revised version of history lead you to
believe that slave ownership was a strictly southern thing and that
the civil war was fought over slave ownership?

How ironic.

David

From:	Joe Walther
Subject:	Re: Another attempt to erase history
Date:	Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:13:38 -0500

"D3331" wrote in message
news:20050106150139.11401.00003075@mb-m29.aol.com...
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/06/confederate.dorm.ap/index.html

Walther responds...

Vanderbilt University is a PRIVATE, small, liberal arts institution. The
Administrators may do whatever they wish relative to naming and/or renaming
buildings. Traditionally, relative to ANY private institution, a donor can
have his/her name associated with a structure's name depending on the amount
of the donation. Beginning at about $250,000 and going toward the 7-figure
amounts, a donor can have anything from a laboratory up to and including an
entire school named after himself/herself, or whatever. While the terms are
never disclosed, the entire matter is reduced to writing. Most of the time
the terms are bilateral and include the establishment of a foundation to
provide ongoing revenue streams.

I am not aware of the exact terms in this case. I do know, however, there is
not very much in writing and there is NO foundation associated with ongoing
revenue streams. This pretty much eliminates any contractually imposed
restrictions.

I can see the poster's point of history being erased. It is valid as far as
it goes. Unfortunately, though, history or not, if the name has become a
source of embarrassment to the school or is contributing to declining
enrollments, the name is going to be changed. The courts will uphold the
University's right to do so.

On the other hand, if there is a significant outcry from a very monetarily
rich alumni group and/or other groups of substantial monetary support in
favor of retaining the name, no change will take place.

Money talks, folks! Private academia is second only to politics when it
comes to the "Golden Rule" of he who has the gold RULES..

Regards

Joe Walther