..

From: "Robert Cohen"
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:33 am
Subject: I'm so confused about Soy

ADVERTISEMENT

"I'm so confused about Soy."
That was the subject of Rob's letter to me:

Rob wrote:

"I don't trust what the media says about Soy.
There are only a few educated people that I
trust on this topic, and you and Dr. Mercola
are two of them, but you and he have opposing
views about soy. If Dr. Mercola is wrong, you
need to address some of the points he makes.
I know for a fact that there are many of your
readers who also subscribe to him. I look
forward to your reply. Thanks."

http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/4/soy_truth.htm
________________________________________

Dear Rob,

Dr. Mercola would have you drink raw milk in the
name of good health, and that advice is disturbing
to me. He is also a proponent of the Neanderthal
diet and would have you eat raw meat too. Somehow,
he took up with the wrong crowd and displays quite
a bit of ignorance regarding his negative comments
on soy and other unhealthy nutritional advice.

Soymilk detractors (Sally Fallon, Price Pottinger,
Dr. Mercola, Soyonlineservice) would have you believe
that it is better to boil babies in hot oil than
serve them soymilk-based formula. Many people swallow
that unhealthy propaganda from the same folks who
receive financing from dairy famers and promoting
the consumption of raw milk.

A paper in the May 2004 issue of the Journal of
Nutrition (May;134(5):1220S-4S) advises otherwise.

After examining clinical evidence of the mechanisms
of isoflavones and bioflavinoids contained in soymilk,
scientists wrote:

"Soy protein has been used in infant feeding in the West
for nearly 100 years. Soy protein infant formulas have
evolved in this interval to become safe and effective
alternatives for infants whose nutritional needs are not
met with human milk or formulas based on cow's milk.
Modern soy formulas meet all nutritional requirements and
safety standards of the Infant Formula Act of 1980."

Is soy formula safe for your child? The Journal Nutrition
believes so. The article concludes:

"Available evidence from adult human and infant
populations indicates that dietary isoflavones in soy
infant formulas do not adversely affect human growth,
development, or reproduction."

Much of what Dr. Mercola says is based upon rat
research which I totally reject.

Consider this. Half of the cancers that rats get,
mice do not get. Half of the cancers that mice get,
rats do not get. If scientific research from one
tiny four-legged long-tailed furry rodent cannot be
applied to another, how can any man or woman of
science attempt to arbitrarily apply such animal
research to humans? Nutritional rat research can
only be applied to rats, which have different organs
and enzymes from humans, and lack gall bladders.
Rats cannot digest soy proteins. Humans can.

Mercola complains that soy contains isoflavones and
phytoestrogens. Well, Dr. Mercola should know that
brocolli contains isoflavones and phytoestorgens
too.

Are phytoestrogens in soy and broccoli hazardous?

According to Mercola.com and his group of soy-bashers
(soyonlineservice.com, Sally Fallon, and the Price
Pottinger Institute), broccoli is also a deadly poison
and must be avoided. So too, for that matter, should
you never again eat seeds, whole grains, berries, fruit,
vegetables, nuts, or sprouts. Let's explore why.

Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
are not steroids like human estrogen, there are those
who would have you induce vomiting, if ever you
swallowed a soy product containing isoflavones. My
advice to you is to not swallow their illogical line
of reasoning.

For each milligram of phytoestrogens that she eats
in soy products, the average American woman will also
consume an additional four milligrams of pytoestrogens
from fruits and vegetables. Advice to abstain from
phytoestrogens is insanity, and Internet hype and
hysteria has infected the good judgement of many
so-called health advocates. This includes many ignorant
physicians, who read one such article and assimilate
just enough information to offer erroneous and dangerous
health advice to their patients.

Phytoestrogens are widely distributed in plants. There
are three categories of phytoestrogens--isoflavones
(which are found in soy), lignans (seeds, fruits
and veggies), and coumestans (broccoli and sprouts).

So, if you take the advice of Internet soy-bashing
ignoramuses and do not drink soymilk because you fear
phytoestrogens, by all means, you must give up fruits,
veggies, nuts, and grains too.

The only reason that phytoestrogens are considered to be
very dangerous is that the name sounds like estrogen,
even though they are not steroid hormones, and even though
their mechanisms of action do not mimic estrogen. Beware
of phytoestrogens, you are told. Like the "boogeyman,"
phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies are gonna get you
while you sleep.

A publication in the February 2004 issue of the American
Journal of Clinical Nutrition (R. Ziegler, 2004;79:183-4)
suggests that women who eat high levels of soy isoflavones
have lower rates of breast cancer than those who consume
low levels of isoflavones.

Dr. Regina Ziegler is a researcher with the National Cancer
Institute. She has taught health and nutrition courses at
Yale and Harvard Universities. Ziegler writes:

"The daily intake of phytoestrogens in white U.S
women has been estimated to be <1 mg, with 80% from
lignans, 20% from isoflavones, and <0.1 from coumestans."

******************************************************
In other words, according to Ziegler, an expert in her
field, Americans eat four times the amount of
phytoestrogens in fruit and veggies as they do from
soy products.
******************************************************
Ziegler continues:

"Historically, breast cancer rates in the United States
have been 4-7 times those in Asia, whereas isoflavone
intake in the United States is <1% that in Asian
populations."

So should you take Mercola's advice and eliminate soy
and all fruits and vegetables because of phytoestrogens?
Should you also follow his dietary advice by eating
raw milk and dairy products and raw meat? If you follow
Mercola, you will be led into a cave with other
Neanderthals.

You might consider contrary advice. An apple a day
does keep the doctor away because of those magical
phytoestrogens. So too do brown rice and almonds,
broccoli, and fresh sprouts. Go heavy on the soy.

Dead raw flesh and cooked animal parts should not
be served with body fluids from diseased animals.
Every cell in your miraculous body craves life, not
death. Cells and enzymes from carrots and oranges.
Green plants containing chlorophyll, and calcium
with magnesium in a proportion that is efficiently
utilized by the human body. A rose will never become
a dead chicken, even if it is so re-named. Neither
would a phytoestrogen become a steroid hormone, nor
act like one.

Mercola has also criticized soy for the presence of
phytates.

Are Wheaties (with soy milk) Hazardous to Your Health?

Of course not, but Dr. Mercola urges you to believe otherwise.

Wheaties cereal contains phytates.

Dairy producers see soymilk as the new kid on the block, and
they are running scared. Their strategy is to spread rumors
about soy because it contains phytates. Perish the thought,
phytates? Quick, induce vomiting. Call Poison Control.
Where's the stomach pump?

One bowl of cereal (portion size is defined on the side of a
box of Wheaties) is equal to: 3/4 cup of cereal and 1/2 cup
of milk.

If the soy naysayers are correct, and if you enjoy a bowl of
Wheaties for breakfast, that single portion of cereal will
contain more than 2.5 times the amount of phytates as will
the soymilk used to moisten that breakfast of champions.

Dr. Anthony Mercola writes:

"Soybeans are high in phytic acid...It's a substance that
can block the uptake of essential minerals... Scientists are
in general agreement that grain- and legume-based diets high
in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in
third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium,
magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods
eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy-
and grain-based diets prevents their absorption."

Sally Fallon director of the Weston Price Foundation echoes
Mercola's lack of wisdom (almost word for word):

"Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates....which
blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium,
iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Scientists
are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets
high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral
deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that
calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant
foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption."

A website registered in New Zealand offers similar
disinformation. Soy Online Service (should be re-named Soy
Offline Disservice). In a column titled "SoyToxins," they
write:

"There's plenty yet that you didn't know about soy! Soy
contains several naturally occurring compounds that are
toxic to humans and animals...soy toxins such as phytic
acid...have the ability to target specific organs, cells and
enzyme pathways and their effects can be devastating....As
with any toxin there will be a dose at which negative
effects are not observed. Soy Online Services have examined
the scientific data on the soy toxins and have uncovered
several alarming truths...There is no legislation to protect
consumers from soy toxins in raw soy products...all soy
products, no matter how well treated, contain low to
moderate levels of soy toxins; processing cannot remove them
all of any of them."

Since soymilk is the bone of contention, I chose its phytate
content to serve as a baseline for comparison to wheat
products.

Charts contained on pages 30-34 of Food Phytates (edited by
Rukma Reddy and Shridhar Sathe, CRC Press, ISBN # 1-56676-
867-5) reveal:

The percentage of phytates in soymilk is listed as 0.11%.

Wheat has been called the "Staff of Life."

Durham wheat contains 8 times more phytates than soymilk
(0.88%).

Whole wheat bread contains almost 4 times more phytates than
soymilk (0.43%).

Wheaties, contain nearly fourteen times more phytates than
soymilk (1.52%).

Let's use common logic here. If wheat contains more phytates
than soymilk, then wheat should not be eaten either, right?
What a silly claim soymilk detractors make. It is without
merit.

A typical portion of breakfast cereal consists of two
ingredients, cereal & milk. The proportions: three-quarters
of a cup of Wheaties weighs 22.5 grams. One-half cup of
soymilk weighs 122.5 grams. Ergo, the wheaties contain 342
milligrams of phytates. The soymilk contains 135 milligrams
of phytates.

Now, let's get to the point of this. In their introduction
and summary of the scientific substantiation to follow, the
authors of Food Phytates write:

"Recent investigations have focused on the beneficial effect
of food phytates, based upon their strong mineral-chelating
property...The beneficial effects include lowering of serum
cholesterol and triglycerides and protection against certain
diseases such as cardiovascular diseases, renal stone
formation, and certain types of cancers."

So you see, phytates are healthy for you. Phytates represent
a prime example of using food for medicine.

Of course, if you happen to believe all of the negative soy
hype, skip the Wheaties. Skip the soymilk. You can always
have a corn muffin, right? Let's go to the phytate chart.
What percentage of corn bread is phytates? Oh, no. Corn
muffins contain twelve times the percentage of phytates as
soymilk, or 1.36%. An extra-large 6-ounce corn muffin (168
grams) contains 228 milligrams of phytates, midway between
the (3/4 cup) Wheaties and (1/2 cup) soymilk.

So, take your pick. All of this anti-phytate rhetoric is
either A) serious stuff B) ridiculous propaganda.

For health, eat isoflavones and phytoestrogens. In that
regard, no fruit, vegetabhle, grain, or legume is more
blessed with nature's healing chemicals than soy. My best
advice to you would be to reject Mercola's suggestion
to eat raw milk and raw meat. Your body will thank you.

Robert Cohen
http://www.notmilk.com

From:	Oz
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:22:09 +0000

Juhana Harju writes
>Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>> In article <32o965F3nuk3hU1@individual.net>, "Juhana Harju"
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>
>>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>
>> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and
>> effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. :)
>
>Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of dementia
>and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of soy?

Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?

--
Oz

From:	Juhana Harju
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:35:20 +0200

Oz wrote:
> Juhana Harju writes
>> Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>> In article <32o965F3nuk3hU1@individual.net>, "Juhana Harju"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>
>>> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>> and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. :)
>>
>> Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>> of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>> they eat a lot of soy?
>
> Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?

Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other group in
the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a
few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and
Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

--
Juhana

From:	rick etter
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:48:16 GMT

"Juhana Harju" wrote in message
news:32qg3nF1c6gecU1@individual.net...
> Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju writes
>>> Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>>> In article <32o965F3nuk3hU1@individual.net>, "Juhana Harju"
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>>
>>>> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>>> and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. :)
>>>
>>> Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>>> of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>>> they eat a lot of soy?
>>
>> Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?
>
> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other
> group in
> the world.
====================
And again, fool. It does not then equate to eating soy in the US as it it
produced. Is that too hard a concept for your 2 working braincells?

Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
> ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but
> also in a
> few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC
> and
> Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p.
> 158)
>
> --
> Juhana
>

From:	Juhana Harju
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:24:55 +0200

Juhana Harju wrote:
> Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju writes
>>> Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>>> In article <32o965F3nuk3hU1@individual.net>, "Juhana Harju"
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>>
>>>> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>>> and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.
>>>> :)
>>>
>>> Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>>> of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>>> they eat a lot of soy?
>>
>> Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?
>
> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other
> group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu
> and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of their
> own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The Okinawa
> Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

You can also look at this site, which confirms the fact.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0838/is_125/ai_n6116796

--
Juhana

From:	usual suspect
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:16:33 GMT

Juhana Harju wrote:
> Oz wrote:
>
>>Juhana Harju writes
>>
>>>Bruce Sinclair wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <32o965F3nuk3hU1@individual.net>, "Juhana Harju"
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>>>dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>>>>
>>>>Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>>>>and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. :)
>>>
>>>Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
>>>of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
>>>they eat a lot of soy?
>>
>>Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?
>
>
> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other group in
> the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
> ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a
> few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and
> Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

Three ounces is one ounce less than a "standard" serving quantity of
meat per meal. Compare that to the average quantity of soy consumed in
the West, particularly among vegetarians who've not truly gotten over
their taste for meat and who consume soy burgers, soy dogs, etc. The
consumption of soy in Okinawa is a fraction in comparison.

From:	Laurie
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:51:14 -1000

"Ron" wrote in message
news:436a5d81.0412131435.1f6b15a6@posting.google.com...
> Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
> are not steroids like human estrogen, ...
Well, why are soy products touted as 'hormone replacement therapy' for
post-menopausal women??

Laurie

From:	usual suspect
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:53:00 GMT

Larry Fruity wrote:

>>Despite the fact that phytoestrogens (plant estrogens)
>>are not steroids like human estrogen, ...
>
> Well, why are soy products touted as 'hormone replacement therapy' for
> post-menopausal women??

Did you grow your tits by eating soy or did you use hormones?

From:	Oz
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:24:11 +0000

Juhana Harju writes
>Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other group in
>the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
>ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a
>few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and
>Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
calorific intake is it?

--
Oz

From:	Juhana Harju
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:40:55 +0200

Oz wrote:
> Juhana Harju writes
>> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
>> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
>> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
>> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
>> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
>> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)
>
> Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
> calorific intake is it?

It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:

Vegetables 34%
Grains 32 %
Soy 12%
Fish 11 %
Fruits 6 %
Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%

(Same source as above)

--
Juhana

From:	Bruce Sinclair
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:21:02 GMT

In article <32qqvmF3lbhqcU1@individual.net>, "Juhana Harju" wrote:
>Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju writes
>>> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
>>> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
>>> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
>>> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
>>> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
>>> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)
>>
>> Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
>> calorific intake is it?
>
>It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:
>
>Vegetables 34%
>Grains 32 %
>Soy 12%
>Fish 11 %
>Fruits 6 %
>Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
>Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%

Looks like what we call a fairly balanced diet. How does this "prove that
soy is safe" in any way ?

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

From:	Juhana Harju
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:54:06 +0200

Juhana Harju wrote:
> Oz wrote:
>> Juhana Harju writes
>>> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
>>> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
>>> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
>>> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
>>> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
>>> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)
>>
>> Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
>> calorific intake is it?
>
> It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:
>
> Vegetables 34%
> Grains 32 %
> Soy 12%
> Fish 11 %
> Fruits 6 %
> Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
> Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%
>
> (Same source as above)

It is interesting to compare the Okinawan diet to the _American diet_:

Vegetables 16%
Grains 11 %
Soy < 1 %
Fish < 1 %
Fruits 20 %
Meat/poultry/eggs 29 %
Calsium rich foods (e.g. dairy) 23 %

(Same source as above)

The life-expectancy of Okinawans is *4.6* years higher than that of Americans.
And Okinawans have clearly less dementia and Alzheimer disease, heart disease
and cancer. Of course there are also other nations that have a high
life-expectancy like people living in some small countries (e.g. Andorra).

--
Juhana

From:	Bruce Sinclair
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:23:43 GMT

In article <32qrodF3p23ntU1@individual.net>, "Juhana Harju" wrote:
>Juhana Harju wrote:
(snip)
>The life-expectancy of Okinawans is *4.6* years higher than that of Americans.
>And Okinawans have clearly less dementia and Alzheimer disease, heart disease
>and cancer. Of course there are also other nations that have a high
>life-expectancy like people living in some small countries (e.g. Andorra).

But you are still ascribing a cause to what is only a correlation. You
still can't do that. No matter how often you repeat this theory, it is
still wrong ... without more work. Sorry :)

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

From:	rick etter
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:49:49 GMT

"Juhana Harju" wrote in message
news:32qrodF3p23ntU1@individual.net...
> Juhana Harju wrote:
>> Oz wrote:
>>> Juhana Harju writes
>>>> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
>>>> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
>>>> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
>>>> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
>>>> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
>>>> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)
>>>
>>> Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
>>> calorific intake is it?
>>
>> It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:
>>
>> Vegetables 34%
>> Grains 32 %
>> Soy 12%
>> Fish 11 %
>> Fruits 6 %
>> Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
>> Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%
>>
>> (Same source as above)
>
> It is interesting to compare the Okinawan diet to the _American diet_:
>
> Vegetables 16%
> Grains 11 %
> Soy < 1 %
> Fish < 1 %
> Fruits 20 %
> Meat/poultry/eggs 29 %
> Calsium rich foods (e.g. dairy) 23 %
>
> (Same source as above)
>
> The life-expectancy of Okinawans is *4.6* years higher than that of
> Americans.
==================
And soy has not been shown to account for that difference. Why do try to
promote it as such? Are you just a shill for the soybean board?

> And Okinawans have clearly less dementia and Alzheimer disease, heart
> disease
> and cancer. Of course there are also other nations that have a high
> life-expectancy like people living in some small countries (e.g. Andorra).
>
> --
> Juhana
>

From:	Oz
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:38:20 +0000

Phred writes
>Didn't see your contribution,

Chuck writes

>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
>their diet and for so many years?

Actually they didn't. In china its relatively recent, it was used for
cattle food due to the toxins and phytoestrogens it contains which are
toxic to humans. This is why soy is processed (severely), traditionally
by lengthy fermentation (soy sauce) or grinding and washing (and less
fermenting - 'bean curds').

Manioc, which only contains easily dealt with cyanide as a toxin,is
probably safer.

see======================
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.business.agriculture/browse_threa
d/thread/7ff129068297d977/f9b7a90987a314db?q=%22Soya+information+(worth+
a+read)%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22Soya+information+(worth+a+read)%22%2
6qt_s%3DSearch+Groups%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f9b7a90987a314db

uk.business.agriculture > "Soya information (worth a read)"

Oz
May 29 2002, 8:39 am show options

Copied from sci.ag (a torsten post)

==========================

>>Where is the proof that soya is safe?

Fit for Human Consumption? The Chinese did not eat the soybean as they
did other pulses (legumes) such as the lentil, because the soybean
contains large quantities of a number of harmful a substances. First
among them are potent enzyme inhibitors which block the action of
trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion.

These "antinutrients" are not completely deactivated during ordinary
cooking and can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein
digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test
animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and
pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. The soybean
also contains hemagglutinin, a clot promoting substance that causes
red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and
hemagglutinin have been rightly labeled growth depressant substances.
Fortunately they are deactivated during the process of fermentation.
However, in precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in
the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus in tofu and bean
curd, these enzyme inhibitors are reduced in quantity, but not
completely eliminated.

Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates. This is an organic
acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds, which blocks the
uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium, iron and especially
zinc-in the intestinal tract. Although not a household word, phytates
have been extensively studied. Scientists are in general agreement
that grain and legume based diets high in phytates contribute to
widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries.

Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in
the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption. The soybean has a
higher phytate content than any other grain or legume that has been
studied. Furthermore, it seems to be highly resistant to many phytate
reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking. Only a long period of
fermentation will significantly reduce the phytate content of
soybeans. Thus fermented products such as tempeh and miso provide
nourishment that is easily assimilated, but the nutritional value of
tofu and bean curd, both high in phytates, is questionable.

When precipitated soy products are consumed with meat, the mineral
blocking effects of the phytates are reduced. The Japanese
traditionally eat tofu as part of a mineral-rich fish broth.
Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat
and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of
calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known, those of zinc
are less so. Zinc is called the intelligence mineral because it is
needed for optimal development and functioning of the brain and
nervous system. It plays a role in protein synthesis and collagen
formation, it Is involved in the blood sugar control mechanism and
thus protects against diabetes; it is needed for a healthy
reproductive system.

Zinc is a key component in numerous vital enzymes and plays a role in
the immune system. Phytates found in soy products interfere with zinc
absorption more completely than with other minerals. Literature
extolling soy products tends to minimize the role of zinc in human
physiology, and to gloss over the deleterious effect of diets high in
phytic acid.

Milk drinking is given as the reason second generation Japanese in
America grow taller than their native ancestors. Some investigators
postulate that the reduced phytate content of the American
diet-whatever maybe its other deficiencies-is the true explanation,
pointing out that Asian and Oriental children who do not get enough
meat and fish products to counteract the effects of a high phytate
diet, frequently suffer rickets, stunting and other growth problems.

Marketing the Soybean The truth is, however, that most Americans are
unlikely to adopt traditional soy products as their principle food.
Tofu, bean curd and tempeh have disagreeable texture and are too bland
for the Western palate; pungent and tasty miso and natto lose out in
taste; only soy sauce enjoys widespread popularity as a condiment. The
soy industry has therefore looked for other ways to market the
superabundance of soybeans now grown in the United States.

Large scale cultivation of the soybean in the United States began only
after the Second World War, and quickly rose to 140 billion pounds per
year. Most of the crop is made into animal feed, soy oil for
hydrogenated fats margarine and shortening. During the past 20 years,
the industry has concentrated on finding markets for the byproducts of
soy oil manufacture, including soy "lecithin", made from the oil
sludge, and soy protein products, made from defatted soy flakes, a
challenge that has involved overcoming consumer resistance to soy
products, generally considered tasteless "poverty foods.

The quickest way to gain product acceptability in the less affluent
society," said a soy industry spokesman, " ... is to have the product
consumed on its own merit in a more affluent society."" Hence the
proliferation of soy products resembling traditional American
foods-soy milk for cows milk, soy baby formula, soy yogurt, soy ice
cream, soy cheese, soy flour for baking and textured soy protein as
meat substitutes, usually promoted as high protein, low-fat, no
cholesterol "health foods" to the upscale consumer increasingly
concerned about his health. The growth of vegetarianism among the more
affluent classes has greatly accelerated the acceptability and use of
these artificial products. Unfortunately they pose numerous dangers.

Processing Denatures and Dangers Remain The production of soy milk is
relatively simple. In order to remove as much of the trypsin inhibitor
content as possible, the beans are first soaked in an alkaline
solution. The pureed solution is then heated to about 115 degrees
Centigrade in a pressure cooker. This method destroys most (but not
all) of the anti-nutrients but has the unhappy side effect of so
denaturing the proteins that they become very difficult to digest and
much reduced in effectiveness. The phytate content remains in soy milk
to block the uptake of essential minerals. In addition, the alkaline
soaking solution produces a carcinogen, lysinealine, and reduces the
cystine content, which is already low in the soybean. Lacking cystine,
the entire protein complex of the soybean becomes useless unless the
diet is fortified with cystine-rich meat, eggs, or dairy products.

Most soy products that imitate traditional American food items,
including baby formulas and some brands of soy milk, are made with soy
protein isolate, that is the soy protein isolated from the
carbohydrate and fatty acid components that naturally occur in the
bean. Soy beans are first ground and subjected to high-temperature and
solvent extraction processes to remove the oils. The resultant
defatted meal is then mixed with an alkaline solution and sugars in a
separation process to remove fiber. Then it is precipitated and
separated using an acid wash. Finally the resultant curds are
neutralized in an alkaline solution and spray dried at high
temperatures to produce high protein powder.

This is a highly refined product in which both vitamin and protein
quality are compromised-but some trypsin inhibitors remain, even after
such extreme refining. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein
isolate can vary as much as 5-fold. In rats, even low level trypsin
inhibitor soy protein isolate feeding results in reduced weight gain
compared to controls. Soy product producers are not required to state
trypsin inhibitor content on labels, nor even to meet minimum
standards, and the public, trained to avoid dietary cholesterol, a
substance vital for normal growth and metabolism, has never heard of
the potent anti-nutrients found in cholesterol-free soy products.

Soy Formula Is Not the Answer Soy protein isolate is the main
ingredient of soy-based infant formulas. Along with trypsin
inhibitors, these formulas have a high phytate content. Use of soy
formula has caused zinc deficiency in infants. Aluminum content of soy
formula is 10 times greater than milk based formula, and 100 times
greater than unprocessed milk. Aluminum has a toxic effect on the
kidneys of infants, and has been implicated as cause in Alzheimer's in
adults.

Soy milk formulas are often given to babies with milk allergy; but
allergies to soy are almost as common as those to milk. Soy formulas
lack cholesterol which is absolutely essential for the development of
the brain and nervous system; they also lack lactose and galactose,
which play an equally important role in the development of the nervous
system. I would strongly discourage the use of soy formulas.

Nitrosamines, which are potent carcinogens, are often found in soy
protein foods, and are greatly increased during the high temperature
drying process. Not surprisingly, animal feeding studies show a lower
weight gain for rats on soy formula than those on whole milk,
high-lactose formula; similar results have been observed in children
on macrobiotic diets which include the use of soy milk and large
amounts of whole grains. Children brought up on high-phytate diets
tend to be thin and scrawny.

Fabricated Soy Foods A final indignity to the original soy bean is
high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein
isolate to product textured vegetable protein (TVP). Numerous
artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to
mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat. Soy
protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are used extensively in
school lunch programs, commercial baked goods, diet beverages and fast
food products. They are heavily promoted in third world countries and
form the basis of many food give-away programs. These soy products
greatly inhibit zinc and iron absorption; in test animals they cause
enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and
increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver.

Human feeding tests to determine the cholesterol lowering properties
of soy protein isolate have not shown them to be effective.
Nevertheless, they are often promoted as having beneficial effects on
cholesterol levels.

Cancer Preventing or Cancer Causing? The food industry also touts soy
products for their cancer preventing properties. Isoflavone aglycones
are anticarcinogenic substances found in traditionally fermented
soybean products. However, in non-fermented soy products such as tofu
and soy milk, these isoflavones are present in an altered form as
beta-glycoside conjugates, which have no anti-carcinogenic effect.
Some researchers believe the rapid increase in liver and pancreatic
cancer in Africa is due to the introduction of soy products there.

The fatty acid profile of the soybean includes large amounts of
beneficial omega-3 fatty acids compared to other pulses legumes); but
these omega-3 fatty acids are particularly susceptible to rancidity
when subjected to high pressures and temperatures. This is exactly
what is required to remove oil from the bean, as soybean oil is
particularly difficult to extract. hexane or other solvents are always
used to extract oil from soybeans, and traces remain in the commercial
product.

While fermented soy products contain protein, vitamins,
anti-carcinogenic substances and important fatty acids, they can under
no circumstances be called nutritionally complete. Like all pulses,
the soybean lacks vital sulfur-containing amino acids cystine and
methionine. These are usually supplied by rice and other grains in
areas where the soybean is traditionally consumed. Soy should never be
considered as a substitute for animal products like meat or milk.
Claims that fermented soy products like tempeh can be relied on as a
source of vitamin B12, necessary for healthy blood and nervous system,
have not been supported by scientific research.,' Finally, soybeans do
not supply all-important fat soluble vitamins D and preformed A
(retinol) which act as catalysts for the proper absorption and
utilization of all minerals and water soluble vitamins in the diet.

These "fat soluble activators" are found only in certain animal foods
such as organ meats, butter, eggs, fish and shellfish. Carotenes from
plant foods and exposure to sunlight are not sufficient to supply the
body's requirements for vitamins A and D. Soy products often replace
animal products in third world countries where intake of B12 and fat
soluble A and D are already low. Soy products actually increase
requirements for vitamins B12 and D.

Are soy products easy to digest, as claimed? Fermented soy products
probably are; but unfermented products with their cargo of phytates,
enzyme inhibitors, rancid fatty acids and altered proteins most
certainly are not. Pet food manufacturers promote soy free dog and cat
food as "highly digestible"

Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
serious problems.

The above information was abstracted from an article written by Sally
Fallon and Mary Enig, Ph.D. (an international expert renown in the
field of lipid chemistry) for Health Freedom News in September of
1995.

=======================================

--
Oz

--
Oz

From:	Oz
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Sat, 18 Dec 2004 07:14:51 +0000

Chuck writes

>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
>their diet and for so many years?

Actually they didn't. In china its relatively recent, it was used for
cattle food due to the toxins and phytoestrogens it contains which are
toxic to humans. This is why soy is processed (severely), traditionally
by lengthy fermentation (soy sauce) or grinding and washing (and less
fermenting - 'bean curds').

Manioc, which only contains easily dealt with cyanide as a toxin,is
probably safer.

see======================
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.business.agriculture/browse_threa
d/thread/7ff129068297d977/f9b7a90987a314db?q=%22Soya+information+(worth+
a+read)%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22Soya+information+(worth+a+read)%22%2
6qt_s%3DSearch+Groups%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f9b7a90987a314db

uk.business.agriculture > "Soya information (worth a read)"

Oz
May 29 2002, 8:39 am show options

Copied from sci.ag (a torsten post)

==========================

>>Where is the proof that soya is safe?

Fit for Human Consumption? The Chinese did not eat the soybean as they
did other pulses (legumes) such as the lentil, because the soybean
contains large quantities of a number of harmful a substances. First
among them are potent enzyme inhibitors which block the action of
trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion.

These "antinutrients" are not completely deactivated during ordinary
cooking and can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein
digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test
animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and
pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. The soybean
also contains hemagglutinin, a clot promoting substance that causes
red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and
hemagglutinin have been rightly labeled growth depressant substances.
Fortunately they are deactivated during the process of fermentation.
However, in precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in
the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus in tofu and bean
curd, these enzyme inhibitors are reduced in quantity, but not
completely eliminated.

Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates. This is an organic
acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds, which blocks the
uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium, iron and especially
zinc-in the intestinal tract. Although not a household word, phytates
have been extensively studied. Scientists are in general agreement
that grain and legume based diets high in phytates contribute to
widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries.

Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in
the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption. The soybean has a
higher phytate content than any other grain or legume that has been
studied. Furthermore, it seems to be highly resistant to many phytate
reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking. Only a long period of
fermentation will significantly reduce the phytate content of
soybeans. Thus fermented products such as tempeh and miso provide
nourishment that is easily assimilated, but the nutritional value of
tofu and bean curd, both high in phytates, is questionable.

When precipitated soy products are consumed with meat, the mineral
blocking effects of the phytates are reduced. The Japanese
traditionally eat tofu as part of a mineral-rich fish broth.
Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat
and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of
calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known, those of zinc
are less so. Zinc is called the intelligence mineral because it is
needed for optimal development and functioning of the brain and
nervous system. It plays a role in protein synthesis and collagen
formation, it Is involved in the blood sugar control mechanism and
thus protects against diabetes; it is needed for a healthy
reproductive system.

Zinc is a key component in numerous vital enzymes and plays a role in
the immune system. Phytates found in soy products interfere with zinc
absorption more completely than with other minerals. Literature
extolling soy products tends to minimize the role of zinc in human
physiology, and to gloss over the deleterious effect of diets high in
phytic acid.

Milk drinking is given as the reason second generation Japanese in
America grow taller than their native ancestors. Some investigators
postulate that the reduced phytate content of the American
diet-whatever maybe its other deficiencies-is the true explanation,
pointing out that Asian and Oriental children who do not get enough
meat and fish products to counteract the effects of a high phytate
diet, frequently suffer rickets, stunting and other growth problems.

Marketing the Soybean The truth is, however, that most Americans are
unlikely to adopt traditional soy products as their principle food.
Tofu, bean curd and tempeh have disagreeable texture and are too bland
for the Western palate; pungent and tasty miso and natto lose out in
taste; only soy sauce enjoys widespread popularity as a condiment. The
soy industry has therefore looked for other ways to market the
superabundance of soybeans now grown in the United States.

Large scale cultivation of the soybean in the United States began only
after the Second World War, and quickly rose to 140 billion pounds per
year. Most of the crop is made into animal feed, soy oil for
hydrogenated fats margarine and shortening. During the past 20 years,
the industry has concentrated on finding markets for the byproducts of
soy oil manufacture, including soy "lecithin", made from the oil
sludge, and soy protein products, made from defatted soy flakes, a
challenge that has involved overcoming consumer resistance to soy
products, generally considered tasteless "poverty foods.

The quickest way to gain product acceptability in the less affluent
society," said a soy industry spokesman, " ... is to have the product
consumed on its own merit in a more affluent society."" Hence the
proliferation of soy products resembling traditional American
foods-soy milk for cows milk, soy baby formula, soy yogurt, soy ice
cream, soy cheese, soy flour for baking and textured soy protein as
meat substitutes, usually promoted as high protein, low-fat, no
cholesterol "health foods" to the upscale consumer increasingly
concerned about his health. The growth of vegetarianism among the more
affluent classes has greatly accelerated the acceptability and use of
these artificial products. Unfortunately they pose numerous dangers.

Processing Denatures and Dangers Remain The production of soy milk is
relatively simple. In order to remove as much of the trypsin inhibitor
content as possible, the beans are first soaked in an alkaline
solution. The pureed solution is then heated to about 115 degrees
Centigrade in a pressure cooker. This method destroys most (but not
all) of the anti-nutrients but has the unhappy side effect of so
denaturing the proteins that they become very difficult to digest and
much reduced in effectiveness. The phytate content remains in soy milk
to block the uptake of essential minerals. In addition, the alkaline
soaking solution produces a carcinogen, lysinealine, and reduces the
cystine content, which is already low in the soybean. Lacking cystine,
the entire protein complex of the soybean becomes useless unless the
diet is fortified with cystine-rich meat, eggs, or dairy products.

Most soy products that imitate traditional American food items,
including baby formulas and some brands of soy milk, are made with soy
protein isolate, that is the soy protein isolated from the
carbohydrate and fatty acid components that naturally occur in the
bean. Soy beans are first ground and subjected to high-temperature and
solvent extraction processes to remove the oils. The resultant
defatted meal is then mixed with an alkaline solution and sugars in a
separation process to remove fiber. Then it is precipitated and
separated using an acid wash. Finally the resultant curds are
neutralized in an alkaline solution and spray dried at high
temperatures to produce high protein powder.

This is a highly refined product in which both vitamin and protein
quality are compromised-but some trypsin inhibitors remain, even after
such extreme refining. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein
isolate can vary as much as 5-fold. In rats, even low level trypsin
inhibitor soy protein isolate feeding results in reduced weight gain
compared to controls. Soy product producers are not required to state
trypsin inhibitor content on labels, nor even to meet minimum
standards, and the public, trained to avoid dietary cholesterol, a
substance vital for normal growth and metabolism, has never heard of
the potent anti-nutrients found in cholesterol-free soy products.

Soy Formula Is Not the Answer Soy protein isolate is the main
ingredient of soy-based infant formulas. Along with trypsin
inhibitors, these formulas have a high phytate content. Use of soy
formula has caused zinc deficiency in infants. Aluminum content of soy
formula is 10 times greater than milk based formula, and 100 times
greater than unprocessed milk. Aluminum has a toxic effect on the
kidneys of infants, and has been implicated as cause in Alzheimer's in
adults.

Soy milk formulas are often given to babies with milk allergy; but
allergies to soy are almost as common as those to milk. Soy formulas
lack cholesterol which is absolutely essential for the development of
the brain and nervous system; they also lack lactose and galactose,
which play an equally important role in the development of the nervous
system. I would strongly discourage the use of soy formulas.

Nitrosamines, which are potent carcinogens, are often found in soy
protein foods, and are greatly increased during the high temperature
drying process. Not surprisingly, animal feeding studies show a lower
weight gain for rats on soy formula than those on whole milk,
high-lactose formula; similar results have been observed in children
on macrobiotic diets which include the use of soy milk and large
amounts of whole grains. Children brought up on high-phytate diets
tend to be thin and scrawny.

Fabricated Soy Foods A final indignity to the original soy bean is
high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein
isolate to product textured vegetable protein (TVP). Numerous
artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to
mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat. Soy
protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are used extensively in
school lunch programs, commercial baked goods, diet beverages and fast
food products. They are heavily promoted in third world countries and
form the basis of many food give-away programs. These soy products
greatly inhibit zinc and iron absorption; in test animals they cause
enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and
increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver.

Human feeding tests to determine the cholesterol lowering properties
of soy protein isolate have not shown them to be effective.
Nevertheless, they are often promoted as having beneficial effects on
cholesterol levels.

Cancer Preventing or Cancer Causing? The food industry also touts soy
products for their cancer preventing properties. Isoflavone aglycones
are anticarcinogenic substances found in traditionally fermented
soybean products. However, in non-fermented soy products such as tofu
and soy milk, these isoflavones are present in an altered form as
beta-glycoside conjugates, which have no anti-carcinogenic effect.
Some researchers believe the rapid increase in liver and pancreatic
cancer in Africa is due to the introduction of soy products there.

The fatty acid profile of the soybean includes large amounts of
beneficial omega-3 fatty acids compared to other pulses legumes); but
these omega-3 fatty acids are particularly susceptible to rancidity
when subjected to high pressures and temperatures. This is exactly
what is required to remove oil from the bean, as soybean oil is
particularly difficult to extract. hexane or other solvents are always
used to extract oil from soybeans, and traces remain in the commercial
product.

While fermented soy products contain protein, vitamins,
anti-carcinogenic substances and important fatty acids, they can under
no circumstances be called nutritionally complete. Like all pulses,
the soybean lacks vital sulfur-containing amino acids cystine and
methionine. These are usually supplied by rice and other grains in
areas where the soybean is traditionally consumed. Soy should never be
considered as a substitute for animal products like meat or milk.
Claims that fermented soy products like tempeh can be relied on as a
source of vitamin B12, necessary for healthy blood and nervous system,
have not been supported by scientific research.,' Finally, soybeans do
not supply all-important fat soluble vitamins D and preformed A
(retinol) which act as catalysts for the proper absorption and
utilization of all minerals and water soluble vitamins in the diet.

These "fat soluble activators" are found only in certain animal foods
such as organ meats, butter, eggs, fish and shellfish. Carotenes from
plant foods and exposure to sunlight are not sufficient to supply the
body's requirements for vitamins A and D. Soy products often replace
animal products in third world countries where intake of B12 and fat
soluble A and D are already low. Soy products actually increase
requirements for vitamins B12 and D.

Are soy products easy to digest, as claimed? Fermented soy products
probably are; but unfermented products with their cargo of phytates,
enzyme inhibitors, rancid fatty acids and altered proteins most
certainly are not. Pet food manufacturers promote soy free dog and cat
food as "highly digestible"

Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
serious problems.

The above information was abstracted from an article written by Sally
Fallon and Mary Enig, Ph.D. (an international expert renown in the
field of lipid chemistry) for Health Freedom News in September of
1995.

=======================================

--
Oz

From:	Oz
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:28:15 +0000

Chuck R. writes
>
>"Oz" wrote in message
>>
>> I posted a long infopack on soy.
>>
>> Did anyone read it?
>
>Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
>products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a
>45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of
>Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound
>for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
>Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
>They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for
>human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature
>quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat
>soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
>made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
>their stocks.

What's that got to do with what I posted?

--
Oz

From:	usual suspect
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:21:11 GMT

Oz wrote:
> Chuck R. writes
>
>>"Oz" wrote in message
>>
>>>I posted a long infopack on soy.
>>>
>>>Did anyone read it?
>>
>>Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
>>products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a
>>45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of
>>Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound
>>for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
>>Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
>>They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for
>>human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature
>>quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat
>>soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
>>made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
>>their stocks.
>
>
> What's that got to do with what I posted?

Not a damn thing, but that doesn't stop old windbags from shooting the
bull about stuff that happened thirty years ago.

From:	Oz
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 07:25:34 +0000

Bruce Sinclair writes
>In article <10s72e9jlvd0966@corp.supernews.com>, "Chuck"
> wrote:
>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
>>their diet and for so many years?
>
>Lack of options ?
>How many years ?
>Maybe they tink it tastes good ?

I posted a long infopack on soy.

Did anyone read it?

It has a lot of definitive information.

--
Oz

From:	Bruce Sinclair
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:01:25 GMT

In article , Oz wrote:
>Bruce Sinclair writes
>>In article <10s72e9jlvd0966@corp.supernews.com>, "Chuck"
>> wrote:
>>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of
>>>their diet and for so many years?
>>
>>Lack of options ?
>>How many years ?
>>Maybe they tink it tastes good ?
>
>I posted a long infopack on soy.
>
>Did anyone read it?

Probably not. :)

>It has a lot of definitive information.

As you say there is much information out there. Pity some people seem only
able to read some of it :)

Bruce

------------------------------
Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
dying of nothing.

-Redd Foxx

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

From:	Chuck R.
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 06:32:24 -0600

"Oz" wrote in message
news:rVYVtBFu5nxBFwiL@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Bruce Sinclair writes
> >In article <10s72e9jlvd0966@corp.supernews.com>, "Chuck"
> > wrote:
> >>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part
of
> >>their diet and for so many years?
> >
> >Lack of options ?
> >How many years ?
> >Maybe they tink it tastes good ?
>
> I posted a long infopack on soy.
>
> Did anyone read it?

Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a
45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of
Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound
for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for
human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature
quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat
soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
their stocks.

Chuck
>
> It has a lot of definitive information.
>
> --
> Oz

From:	usual suspect
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:51:09 GMT

Chuck R. wrote:
> "Oz" wrote in message
> news:rVYVtBFu5nxBFwiL@farmeroz.port995.com...
>
>>Bruce Sinclair writes
>>
>>>In article <10s72e9jlvd0966@corp.supernews.com>, "Chuck"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part
>
> of
>
>>>>their diet and for so many years?
>>>
>>>Lack of options ?
>>>How many years ?
>>>Maybe they tink it tastes good ?
>>
>>I posted a long infopack on soy.
>>
>>Did anyone read it?
>
> Yes I did,

Bullshit. Chuck doesn't read. The fact that Chuck often misrepresents
what others actually write proves it.

> And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
> products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a
> 45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of
> Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound
> for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
> Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
> They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for
> human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature
> quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat
> soy or soy products.

You clueless idiot! People have only pointed out that Asians don't eat
as much soy as Westerners do in the same form that Westerners eat it.
Did you bother reading the links offered to you?

The estimated amount of soy protein consumed from these sources
was 8.00 ± 4.95 g/day for men and 6.88 ± 4.06 g/day for women
(Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Kurisu Y, Shimizu H; J Nutr 1998,
128:209-13).... According to KC Chang, editor of Food in Chinese
Culture, the total caloric intake due to soy in the Chinese diet
in the 1930's was only 1.5%, compared with 65% for pork.
http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm

We pointed out studies showing that soy consumption in Asia is
actually much lower than claimed—averaging 10 grams per person,
less than two teaspoons.
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html

Etc.

> Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
> made in Asian countries, not here.

Made in Asia from US soy. Guess why, numbnuts. Do you think their
agricultural inefficiency in comparison to the size of their population
just might play a role? (And vice versa from our end: we grow soy and
grains much more efficiently than most of the world and our population
is growing primarily because of immigration.)

> These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
> their stocks.

No, they do not. The biggest hurdle for import grocers involves a smooth
stream of supply from suppliers because of customs and transportation
issues. That hurdle has gotten increasingly smaller than it was when you
worked in the soy fields 30 years ago thanks to trade agreements and
improvements in technology and shipping.

From:	Chuck R.
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 09:43:54 -0600

Wow!! you are so f*****g smart it must almost hurt( bet you go to bed with a
headache every night) but then why do you have to suggest everyone else is
stupid just to verify how smart you are. Just whom are you trying to
convince.. And, just to remind you, some of what you post is true but more
is just plain fertilizer (I don't use it anymore cause I dont grow soy now)

"usual suspect" wrote in message
news:xFBxd.61438$yf.25099@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Chuck R. wrote:
> > "Oz" wrote in message
> > news:rVYVtBFu5nxBFwiL@farmeroz.port995.com...
> >
> >>Bruce Sinclair writes
> >>
> >>>In article <10s72e9jlvd0966@corp.supernews.com>, "Chuck"
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large
part
> >
> > of
> >
> >>>>their diet and for so many years?
> >>>
> >>>Lack of options ?
> >>>How many years ?
> >>>Maybe they tink it tastes good ?
> >>
> >>I posted a long infopack on soy.
> >>
> >>Did anyone read it?
> >
> > Yes I did,
>
> Bullshit. Chuck doesn't read. The fact that Chuck often misrepresents
> what others actually write proves it.
>
> > And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
> > products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager
of a
> > 45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest
exporter of
> > Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily
bound
> > for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
> > Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
> > They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined
for
> > human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the
literature
> > quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't
eat
> > soy or soy products.
>
> You clueless idiot! People have only pointed out that Asians don't eat
> as much soy as Westerners do in the same form that Westerners eat it.
> Did you bother reading the links offered to you?
>
> The estimated amount of soy protein consumed from these sources
> was 8.00 ± 4.95 g/day for men and 6.88 ± 4.06 g/day for women
> (Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Kurisu Y, Shimizu H; J Nutr 1998,
> 128:209-13).... According to KC Chang, editor of Food in Chinese
> Culture, the total caloric intake due to soy in the Chinese diet
> in the 1930's was only 1.5%, compared with 65% for pork.
> http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm
>
> We pointed out studies showing that soy consumption in Asia is
> actually much lower than claimed—averaging 10 grams per person,
> less than two teaspoons.
> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html
>
> Etc.
>
> > Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
> > made in Asian countries, not here.
>
> Made in Asia from US soy. Guess why, numbnuts. Do you think their
> agricultural inefficiency in comparison to the size of their population
> just might play a role? (And vice versa from our end: we grow soy and
> grains much more efficiently than most of the world and our population
> is growing primarily because of immigration.)
>
> > These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
> > their stocks.
>
> No, they do not. The biggest hurdle for import grocers involves a smooth
> stream of supply from suppliers because of customs and transportation
> issues. That hurdle has gotten increasingly smaller than it was when you
> worked in the soy fields 30 years ago thanks to trade agreements and
> improvements in technology and shipping.

From:	usual suspect
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:03:33 GMT

Chuck R. wrote:
> Wow!! you are so f*****g smart it must almost hurt( bet you go to bed with a
> headache every night)

I know you're afraid to use your brain, but I assure you that it does
NOT hurt to use it.

> but then why do you have to suggest everyone else is
> stupid

Not everyone, just top-posters like you who spout off without ever once
substantiating your claims.

> just to verify how smart you are.

Part of being smart is reading the links for the information which
supports my claims. You never offered any support for your wild claims
about soy intake. The evidence I provided showed that your claims are a
bunch of shit.

> Just whom are you trying to convince..

People with open and inquiring minds. Do you find that too exclusive?

> And, just to remind you, some of what you post is true

I didn't post any lies. I added informtion to refute your claims. In
response, you've only stooped to making it personal. He who throws mud
loses ground quickly.

> but more
> is just plain fertilizer (I don't use it anymore cause I dont grow soy now)

Good. Go fuck yourself.

> "usual suspect" wrote in message
> news:xFBxd.61438$yf.25099@fe2.texas.rr.com...
>
>>Chuck R. wrote:
>>
>>>"Oz" wrote in message
>>>news:rVYVtBFu5nxBFwiL@farmeroz.port995.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bruce Sinclair writes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <10s72e9jlvd0966@corp.supernews.com>, "Chuck"
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large
>
> part
>
>>>of
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>their diet and for so many years?
>>>>>
>>>>>Lack of options ?
>>>>>How many years ?
>>>>>Maybe they tink it tastes good ?
>>>>
>>>>I posted a long infopack on soy.
>>>>
>>>>Did anyone read it?
>>>
>>>Yes I did,
>>
>>Bullshit. Chuck doesn't read. The fact that Chuck often misrepresents
>>what others actually write proves it.
>>
>>
>>>And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
>>>products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager
>
> of a
>
>>>45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest
>
> exporter of
>
>>>Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily
>
> bound
>
>>>for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
>>>Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
>>>They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined
>
> for
>
>>>human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the
>
> literature
>
>>>quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't
>
> eat
>
>>>soy or soy products.
>>
>>You clueless idiot! People have only pointed out that Asians don't eat
>>as much soy as Westerners do in the same form that Westerners eat it.
>>Did you bother reading the links offered to you?
>>
>>The estimated amount of soy protein consumed from these sources
>>was 8.00 ± 4.95 g/day for men and 6.88 ± 4.06 g/day for women
>>(Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Kurisu Y, Shimizu H; J Nutr 1998,
>>128:209-13).... According to KC Chang, editor of Food in Chinese
>>Culture, the total caloric intake due to soy in the Chinese diet
>>in the 1930's was only 1.5%, compared with 65% for pork.
>>http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm
>>
>>We pointed out studies showing that soy consumption in Asia is
>>actually much lower than claimed—averaging 10 grams per person,
>>less than two teaspoons.
>>http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html
>>
>>Etc.
>>
>>
>>>Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
>>>made in Asian countries, not here.
>>
>>Made in Asia from US soy. Guess why, numbnuts. Do you think their
>>agricultural inefficiency in comparison to the size of their population
>>just might play a role? (And vice versa from our end: we grow soy and
>>grains much more efficiently than most of the world and our population
>>is growing primarily because of immigration.)
>>
>>
>>>These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
>>>their stocks.
>>
>>No, they do not. The biggest hurdle for import grocers involves a smooth
>>stream of supply from suppliers because of customs and transportation
>>issues. That hurdle has gotten increasingly smaller than it was when you
>>worked in the soy fields 30 years ago thanks to trade agreements and
>>improvements in technology and shipping.
>
>
>

From:	Bruce Sinclair
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:06:18 GMT

In article <10sdspvr71oqd87@corp.supernews.com>, "Chuck R." wrote:
>Wow!! you are so f*****g smart it must almost hurt( bet you go to bed with a
>headache every night) but then why do you have to suggest everyone else is
>stupid just to verify how smart you are. Just whom are you trying to
>convince.. And, just to remind you, some of what you post is true but more
>is just plain fertilizer (I don't use it anymore cause I dont grow soy now)

We can only go by what we read. From what we read, stupid (or perhaps
wilfully ignorant) is a fair assement.
... and now you take to top posting ? ... absolute proof :)

Bruce

------------------------------
Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals
dying of nothing.

-Redd Foxx

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

From:	Phred
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:24:36 GMT

In article <10sdhj23brpm41b@corp.supernews.com>, "Chuck R." wrote:
>
>"Oz" wrote in message
>news:rVYVtBFu5nxBFwiL@farmeroz.port995.com...
>> Bruce Sinclair writes
>> >In article <10s72e9jlvd0966@corp.supernews.com>, "Chuck"
>> > wrote:
>> >>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part
>> >>of their diet and for so many years?
>> >
>> >Lack of options ?
>> >How many years ?
>> >Maybe they tink it tastes good ?
>>
>> I posted a long infopack on soy. Did anyone read it?

G'day Oz,

Didn't see your contribution, but this article motivated me to do a
google on 'soybean toxicity' (being a fair-minded, unbiased observer
of the thread ;-) and I stumbled across this site which has a long
essay on the subject (about 33 pages of it, according to "File/Print
Preview"). Don't know how reliable it is, but I did detect a smidgen
of confused cause and effect.

<>http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm>

They quote one study of Japanese/American men which "found that the
men who ate the most tofu during mid-life had up to 2.4 times the risk
of later developing Alzheimer's disease. Lead researcher Dr. Lon R.
White said that men who ate tofu at least twice weekly showed brain
aging about five years faster than those who seldom ate tofu."

This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that
crap!

>Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy
>products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a
>45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of
>Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound
>for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to
>Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China.
>They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for
>human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature
>quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat
>soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are
>made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing
>their stocks.
>>
>> It has a lot of definitive information.

Cheers, Phred.

--
ppnerkDELETE@THISyahoo.com.INVALID

From:	Juhana Harju
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:24:53 +0200

Phred wrote:

> Didn't see your contribution, but this article motivated me to do a
> google on 'soybean toxicity' (being a fair-minded, unbiased observer
> of the thread ;-) and I stumbled across this site which has a long
> essay on the subject (about 33 pages of it, according to "File/Print
> Preview"). Don't know how reliable it is, but I did detect a smidgen
> of confused cause and effect.
>
> <>http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm>
>
> They quote one study of Japanese/American men which "found that the
> men who ate the most tofu during mid-life had up to 2.4 times the risk
> of later developing Alzheimer's disease. Lead researcher Dr. Lon R.
> White said that men who ate tofu at least twice weekly showed brain
> aging about five years faster than those who seldom ate tofu."
>
> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that
> crap!

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of dementia and
Azheimer's disease.

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html

--
Juhana

From:	rick etter
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:22:36 GMT

"Juhana Harju" wrote in message
news:32o965F3nuk3hU1@individual.net...
> Phred wrote:

snippage...

>>
>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that
>> crap!
>
> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of dementia
> and
> Azheimer's disease.
> ================
Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. It is not
the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with conmprehension too,
huh?

They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And lastly, they
eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is responsible for all the
'good?' Agenda driving are you?

> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>
>
> --
> Juhana
>

From:	Juhana Harju
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:32:08 +0200

rick etter wrote:
> "Juhana Harju" wrote in message
> news:32o965F3nuk3hU1@individual.net...
>> Phred wrote:
>
> snippage...
>
>>>
>>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that
>>> crap!
>>
>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>> dementia and
>> Azheimer's disease.

> Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. It
> is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with
> conmprehension too, huh?

No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat texturized soy
protein, which might not be so healthy.

> They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And
> lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is
> responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you?

I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as tofu and with
diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not dangerous
either. The isoflavonols in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That is
a clear advantage.

--
Juhana

From:	rick etter
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Mon, 20 Dec 2004 21:45:36 GMT

"Juhana Harju" wrote in message
news:32ogkoF3ork09U1@individual.net...
> rick etter wrote:
>> "Juhana Harju" wrote in message
>> news:32o965F3nuk3hU1@individual.net...
>>> Phred wrote:
>>
>> snippage...
>>
>>>>
>>>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that
>>>> crap!
>>>
>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>> dementia and
>>> Azheimer's disease.
>
>> Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. It
>> is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with
>> conmprehension too, huh?
>
> No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat texturized
> soy
> protein, which might not be so healthy.
==================
LOL Which was the discussion I was in. The inplication that soy is soy,
and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all they needed to
do was switch to tofu meat substitutes.

>
>> They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And
>> lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is
>> responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you?
>
> I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as tofu
> and with
> diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not dangerous
> either.
==================
Really? That proof is where?

The isoflavonols in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That is
> a clear advantage.
>
> --
> Juhana
>

From:	Juhana Harju
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:03:54 +0200

rick etter wrote:
> "Juhana Harju" wrote in message
> news:32ogkoF3ork09U1@individual.net...
>> rick etter wrote:
>>> "Juhana Harju" wrote in message
>>> news:32o965F3nuk3hU1@individual.net...
>>>> Phred wrote:
>>>
>>> snippage...
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat
>>>>> that crap!
>>>>
>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>> dementia and
>>>> Azheimer's disease.
>>
>>> Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US.
>>> It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with
>>> conmprehension too, huh?
>>
>> No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat
>> texturized soy
>> protein, which might not be so healthy.
>
> LOL Which was the discussion I was in.

Are you drunk?

> The inplication that soy is
> soy, and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all
> they needed to do was switch to tofu meat substitutes.

Harvard university makes a clear distinction between processed soy products and
other soy products and gives a recommendation:

"Eat soy in moderation. Soybeans, tofu, and other soy-based foods are an
excellent alternative to red meat. But don't go overboard. Two to four servings
a week is a good target. And stay away from supplements that contain
concentrated soy protein or soy extracts, such as isoflavones."

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein.html

>>> They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And
>>> lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is
>>> responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you?
>>
>> I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as
>> tofu and with
>> diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not
>> dangerous either.
>
> Really? That proof is where?

There is epidemilogical evidence from the studies of Okinawan elders that eating
a diet loaded with vegetables, tofu and fish prevents dementia and Alheimer
disease better than Western diets. There is less dementia and Alzheimer disease
in the Okinawa than in Western countries.

> The isoflavones in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That
> is a clear advantage.

--
Juhana

From:	rick etter
Subject:	Re: Soy is Safe.
Date:	Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:32:07 GMT

"Juhana Harju" wrote in message
news:32p0iaF3omi47U1@individual.net...
> rick etter wrote:
>> "Juhana Harju" wrote in message
>> news:32ogkoF3ork09U1@individual.net...
>>> rick etter wrote:
>>>> "Juhana Harju" wrote in message
>>>> news:32o965F3nuk3hU1@individual.net...
>>>>> Phred wrote:
>>>>
>>>> snippage...
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat
>>>>>> that crap!
>>>>>
>>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>>>> dementia and
>>>>> Azheimer's disease.
>>>
>>>> Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US.
>>>> It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with
>>>> conmprehension too, huh?
>>>
>>> No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat
>>> texturized soy
>>> protein, which might not be so healthy.
>>
>> LOL Which was the discussion I was in.
>
> Are you drunk?
>
>> The inplication that soy is
>> soy, and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all
>> they needed to do was switch to tofu meat substitutes.
>
> Harvard university makes a clear distinction between processed soy
> products and
> other soy products and gives a recommendation:
>
> "Eat soy in moderation.
=======================
ROTFLMAO Just above you where basing your spew on eating *lots* of soy...
You really should try to keep up.

Soybeans, tofu, and other soy-based foods are an
> excellent alternative to red meat. But don't go overboard. Two to four
> servings
> a week is a good target. And stay away from supplements that contain
> concentrated soy protein or soy extracts, such as isoflavones."
>
> http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein.html
>
>
>>>> They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And
>>>> lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is
>>>> responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you?
>>>
>>> I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as
>>> tofu and with
>>> diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not
>>> dangerous either.
>>
>> Really? That proof is where?
>
> There is epidemilogical evidence from the studies of Okinawan elders that
> eating
> a diet loaded with vegetables, tofu and fish prevents dementia and
> Alheimer
> disease better than Western diets. There is less dementia and Alzheimer
> disease
> in the Okinawa than in Western countries.
======================
LOL The last such 'proof' posted here qoted an elderly lady that didn't go
to bed at night without drinking herself to sleep too. Besides, the soy
isn't mostly in the form of tofu, and sued as a meat substitute as it is
promoted here. They eat fish, and many freah fruits and veggies. And
again, they eat lots less than many peoples. So where do you pick out the
soy and claim that *ut* is