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 | | From: | AlanEdgey at aol.com | | Subject: | Re:_Feeding_the_needy/lonely(_was_Scottish_quake_donations_hit_£8m) | | Date: | 17 Jan 2005 04:42:23 -0800 |
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 | That's all awful interesting but I can't see how meaning like
"manage,succeed, master;control;dominate" (wicker baskets aside) would
make semantic sense in what you wrote.
Surely you used 'maun' meaning 'must' in what you wrote. Given not,
what did you mean.
I doubt you'll can find a dictionary quote to uphold your threap.
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| | From: | Richard Caley | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:16:19 GMT |
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| In article <1105965743.153916.126830@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, AlanEdgey (a) writes:
a> That's all awful interesting but I can't see how meaning like
a> "manage,succeed, master;control;dominate" (wicker baskets aside) would
a> make semantic sense in what you wrote.
Must doesn't make any sense either, unless there is some kind of law
preventing people shareing a home with Auld Bob.
I'm suprised what a weak showing Auld Bob put up, simply changing the
accent produes:
(With words which might need to be explained to an Englishman
capitalised)
Nah! No other GADGIES MAUN BIDE in the Peffers house. Old Bob MAUN be
the householder and the one what does the householding. What's more,
Old Bob MAUN be often HOOSEFAST too. Now, about yon porrige - Old
Bob MAUN birl the SPURTLE too - all by his lone. You're wrong again you
MUCKLE GOWK.
That's very nearly standard English English with a few dialect words
inserted, an archaic `yon', and an additional meaning for
`householder'. Many dialects of Scottish English are further removed
from Standard English English than the above.
The only non-standard structures are
`Nah' Common enough in England
`what does the' Common in many English dialects
`all by his lone' Would be `...lonesome' where I come from
Perhaps the first use of `maun' if it's being used as an emphatic
rather than to actually signal neccesity.
If that's as exotic this supposed separate language gets, it hardly
counts as a separate dialect, just a strong accent.
--
Mail me as MYFIRSTNAME@MYLASTNAME.org.uk _O_
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| | From: | Michilín | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:07:24 GMT |
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| On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:16:19 GMT, Richard Caley MY_LAST_NAME.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <1105965743.153916.126830@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, AlanEdgey (a) writes:
>
>a> That's all awful interesting but I can't see how meaning like
>a> "manage,succeed, master;control;dominate" (wicker baskets aside) would
>a> make semantic sense in what you wrote.
>
>Must doesn't make any sense either, unless there is some kind of law
>preventing people shareing a home with Auld Bob.
>
>
>I'm suprised what a weak showing Auld Bob put up, simply changing the
>accent produes:
>
>(With words which might need to be explained to an Englishman
> capitalised)
>
>Nah! No other GADGIES MAUN BIDE in the Peffers house. Old Bob MAUN be
>the householder and the one what does the householding. What's more,
>Old Bob MAUN be often HOOSEFAST too. Now, about yon porrige - Old
>Bob MAUN birl the SPURTLE too - all by his lone. You're wrong again you
>MUCKLE GOWK.
>
>That's very nearly standard English English with a few dialect words
>inserted, an archaic `yon', and an additional meaning for
>`householder'. Many dialects of Scottish English are further removed
>from Standard English English than the above.
>
>The only non-standard structures are
>
> `Nah' Common enough in England
> `what does the' Common in many English dialects
> `all by his lone' Would be `...lonesome' where I come from
>
>Perhaps the first use of `maun' if it's being used as an emphatic
>rather than to actually signal neccesity.
>
>If that's as exotic this supposed separate language gets, it hardly
>counts as a separate dialect, just a strong accent.
>
>--
>Mail me as MYFIRSTNAME@MYLASTNAME.org.uk _O_
> |<
>
I haven't quite figured out your agenda yet, whether it's a personal
beef with Auld Bob, a desire to put the Lowland Scottish culture down
or simply a desire to demonstrate your own cleverness, but when you
attempt to polish your wit on the remnants of the Scots language, I
want you to understand that you are making yourself no friends here.
I have a Highlander's contempt for all things English, which I try to
keep suppressed, but which is constantly reinforced by experience,
even here in far -off Canada. It's nothing personal, Mr. Edgey, it's
just that your *nglish manners make a poor impression on Highlanders.
As a MacDonald chief once said, "Cuir a mach an Sasannach 'us thoir
astaigh an cù! - Throw out the Englishman and bring in the dog."
We should have done that years ago when we could have done.
Michilín
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| | From: | Richard Caley | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:31:18 GMT |
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| In article <41ed48e3.11537309@news>, micheil (m) writes:
m> I haven't quite figured out your agenda yet, whether it's a personal
m> beef with Auld Bob,
Been here too long for that. If I'd had a grudge lasting that long it
would have come to swords on Arthur's Seat at dawn by now.
m> a desire to put the Lowland Scottish culture down
I have said nothing that in any way puts lowland culture down. I'd
point out I chose to live here, while you choose to live way over
there, which may give an indication of who likes this bit of Scotland
more.
m> or simply a desire to demonstrate your own cleverness,
Been there, done that, got the hit on the head with the cushion.
Have you considered that perhaps I have an interest in language and am
trying to help Bob to put his position into words?
m> but when you attempt to polish your wit on the remnants of the
m> Scots language, I want you to understand that you are making
m> yourself no friends here.
I have no particular need for friends in Canada. Not that I would
object to some, but if I were to look for some I would prefer them
to be sane.
Auld Bob is a gentleman who gets rather emotionally agitated on
certain subjects. You, dear, are just an arsehole. Now go away and let
the grown-ups talk.
BTW, porriage with maple syrup is rather nice. Dunno if it would be
improved if I used a spurtle, but I don't think it would fit in the
microwave.
--
Mail me as MYFIRSTNAME@MYLASTNAME.org.uk _O_
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| | From: | Robert Peffers | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Wed, 19 Jan 2005 02:33:58 -0000 |
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"Richard Caley" wrote in message
news:87sm4yfshi.fsf@pele.r.caley.org.uk...
> In article <41ed48e3.11537309@news>, micheil (m) writes:
>
> m> I haven't quite figured out your agenda yet, whether it's a personal
> m> beef with Auld Bob,
>
> Been here too long for that. If I'd had a grudge lasting that long it
> would have come to swords on Arthur's Seat at dawn by now.
>
> m> a desire to put the Lowland Scottish culture down
>
> I have said nothing that in any way puts lowland culture down. I'd
> point out I chose to live here, while you choose to live way over
> there, which may give an indication of who likes this bit of Scotland
> more.
>
> m> or simply a desire to demonstrate your own cleverness,
>
> Been there, done that, got the hit on the head with the cushion.
>
> Have you considered that perhaps I have an interest in language and am
> trying to help Bob to put his position into words?
Now needing help to express myself, or my ideas, has never struck me as a
problem.
>
> m> but when you attempt to polish your wit on the remnants of the
> m> Scots language, I want you to understand that you are making
> m> yourself no friends here.
>
> I have no particular need for friends in Canada. Not that I would
> object to some, but if I were to look for some I would prefer them
> to be sane.
>
> Auld Bob is a gentleman who gets rather emotionally agitated on
> certain subjects. You, dear, are just an arsehole. Now go away and let
> the grown-ups talk.
Me, getting emotional? I do have the capacity to feel for people, and very
strongly, but the Scots languages are not among the things that really make
me emotional. Senseless killing, hurting people and the hard knocks of like
upon those who cannot help themselves really do upset me. I also care deeply
for people who are disadvantaged by life's little mishaps and disabilities.
>
> BTW, porriage with maple syrup is rather nice. Dunno if it would be
> improved if I used a spurtle, but I don't think it would fit in the
> microwave.
>
> --
> Mail me as MYFIRSTNAME@MYLASTNAME.org.uk _O_
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>
I can never quite understand why microwavable porridge is a desirable
commodity? After all, like eggs, porridge is one of natures pre-packaged
and/or almost instant foods. I used to like my porridge made with proper
oatmeal rather than rolled breakfast oats. These do require long slow
cooking to be just right but they do have a really great, and all their own,
flavour. Have I ever told you how the ploughmen, and other farm hands, used
to make, and eat, their porridge in the farm bothy? The oatmeal was first
brought through the boil in a large pot on the pot bellied stove in the
middle of the bothy. It was then put in a large lidded dish and placed in a,
"Haybox", where it slow-cooked. Then the first serving was eaten hot and the
rest of the batch was poured, (though after the slow cooking it was not easy
to pour), into a drawer in the chest of drawers of the large sideboard. The
drawer was first lined with brown paper. The porridge set and the next
serving was made by cutting a slice from the batch in the drawer and
spreading, it like a slice of bread, with, honey, treacle, syrup or farm
made jam or jeelie.
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
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| | From: | Richard Caley | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:01:19 GMT |
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| In article , Robert Peffers (rp) writes:
>> Have you considered that perhaps I have an interest in language and am
>> trying to help Bob to put his position into words?
rp> Now needing help to express myself, or my ideas, has never struck me as a
rp> problem.
But you are finding it hard to say exactly what criterion you are
using to decide where divisions between languages are most usefully
placed.
rp> I can never quite understand why microwavable porridge is a desirable
rp> commodity?
All porriage is microwavable. The instant stuff is vile, no matter how
cooked.
The only reason to cook porriage in the microwave is that the pot
cleans up easier and the microwave has a timer. If the Scots were as
inventive as the Japanese, they would have invented automatic porriage
cookers by now along the same lines as rice cookers.
rp> I used to like my porridge made with proper oatmeal rather than
rp> rolled breakfast oats.These do require long slow cooking to be
rp> just right but they do have a really great, and all their own,
rp> flavour.
Isn't oatmeal finer and so would require less cooking time?
Generally I try and find whole rolled oats, but I'm an Evil Englishman
after all.
--
Mail me as MYFIRSTNAME@MYLASTNAME.org.uk _O_
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| | From: | Robert Peffers | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:40:54 -0000 |
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"Richard Caley" wrote in message
news:87y8eskxnh.fsf_-_@pele.r.caley.org.uk...
> In article <1105965743.153916.126830@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> AlanEdgey (a) writes:
>
> a> That's all awful interesting but I can't see how meaning like
> a> "manage,succeed, master;control;dominate" (wicker baskets aside) would
> a> make semantic sense in what you wrote.
>
> Must doesn't make any sense either, unless there is some kind of law
> preventing people shareing a home with Auld Bob.
>
>
> I'm suprised what a weak showing Auld Bob put up, simply changing the
> accent produes:
>
> (With words which might need to be explained to an Englishman
> capitalised)
>
> Nah! No other GADGIES MAUN BIDE in the Peffers house. Old Bob MAUN be
> the householder and the one what does the householding. What's more,
> Old Bob MAUN be often HOOSEFAST too. Now, about yon porrige - Old
> Bob MAUN birl the SPURTLE too - all by his lone. You're wrong again you
> MUCKLE GOWK.
>
> That's very nearly standard English English with a few dialect words
> inserted, an archaic `yon', and an additional meaning for
> `householder'. Many dialects of Scottish English are further removed
> from Standard English English than the above.
>
> The only non-standard structures are
>
> `Nah' Common enough in England
> `what does the' Common in many English dialects
> `all by his lone' Would be `...lonesome' where I come from
>
> Perhaps the first use of `maun' if it's being used as an emphatic
> rather than to actually signal neccesity.
>
> If that's as exotic this supposed separate language gets, it hardly
> counts as a separate dialect, just a strong accent.
Whoa there! Do you mind if I make a few little salient observations here?
First, hoosehadder=householder but hoosehaddin is NOT householding but IS
housekeeping, (perhaps you can see why I chose that particular word)?
Hoose-fast is housebound.
Spurtle may be, and often is Spirtle= wooden stirrer not neccessisarily a
spoon, (it is often used for, but not exclusively for, porridge).
Birl=turn;turn round;spin;rotate;whirl round;revolve or even pour out or,
perhaps even dance. --- you don't have to guess which one I intended as I
coupled it with spurtle to mean stir the porridge? What, though, if I had
intended it to mean, "Pour out"?
Wha diz the="who does the", and not, "what does the". The first being good
Scots grammar while the second is bad English grammar, (perhaps you may also
see why I chose that example too)?
By hiz lane="on his own", not necessarily anything to do with being either
alone or lonely, (again I was being, perhaps, a little more subtle than you
tended to give me credit for)?
One may do something, "By hiz lane", in the middle of a crowd. As I once did
while supporting The Hibs at Ibrox and ended up in the wrong end of the
ground due to a ticket mix up. Mind you I did not advertise the fact,
especially as Hibs won the match. There are many words in Scots that have no
direct English translation. Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean
the same as, "Dreich"?
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
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| | From: | Richard Caley | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:06:18 GMT |
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| In article , Robert Peffers (rp) writes:
rp> First, hoosehadder=householder but hoosehaddin is NOT householding but IS
rp> housekeeping, (perhaps you can see why I chose that particular word)?
Indeed, that's the other meaning I mentioned. If you consider them
lexically different, at it as another dialect word.
rp> Hoose-fast is housebound.
I guessed.
rp> Spurtle may be, and often is Spirtle= wooden stirrer not neccessisarily a
rp> spoon, (it is often used for, but not exclusively for, porridge).
So?
rp> Birl=turn;turn round;spin;rotate;whirl round;revolve or even pour out or,
rp> perhaps even dance. --- you don't have to guess which one I intended as I
rp> coupled it with spurtle to mean stir the porridge? What, though, if I had
rp> intended it to mean, "Pour out"?
What if you had? Doesn't affect anything I said.
rp> Wha diz the="who does the", and not, "what does the". The first being good
rp> Scots grammar while the second is bad English grammar,
If you like. Again doesn't affect what I said.
The second is not bad English grammar, it is perfectly good in many
dialects.
rp> By hiz lane="on his own", not necessarily anything to do with being either
rp> alone or lonely,
Indeed. Like by his lonesome.
rp> One may do something, "By hiz lane", in the middle of a crowd.
One may be lonely in the middle of a crowd, so that is hardly
pertinant. However, that is nothing to do with what I said.
rp> There are many words in Scots that have no direct English
rp> translation.
There are many words in any dialect which have no direct translation
in other dialects. That is, more or less, what makes them dialects. If
the words had synonyms in other dialects they would just be (possibly
huge) differences in pronunciation of the same lexeme. Mind you it's
hard to imagine how that could happen for non-trivial differences
without someone intentionally coining a new word and everyone
consciously adopting it as a synonym, perhaps to differentiate
themselves from another group, even then the meanings would drift
apart.
rp> Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean the same as,
rp> "Dreich"?
Manchester?
Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean the same as "chair"?
(OK, for the smart aleks I should include `other than "chair"').
Words are, with very few exceptions, all individual. They carry about
masses of semantic baggage making exact synonyms very rare. "All
translators are traitors" and all that.
--
Mail me as MYFIRSTNAME@MYLASTNAME.org.uk _O_
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| | From: | Robert Peffers | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:40:09 -0000 |
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"Richard Caley" wrote in message
news:87651wkk39.fsf@pele.r.caley.org.uk...
> In article , Robert Peffers (rp) writes:
>
> rp> First, hoosehadder=householder but hoosehaddin is NOT householding but
> IS
> rp> housekeeping, (perhaps you can see why I chose that particular word)?
> Indeed, that's the other meaning I mentioned. If you consider them
> lexically different, at it as another dialect word.
>
> rp> Hoose-fast is housebound.
>
> I guessed.
Yes, I know.
>
> rp> Spurtle may be, and often is Spirtle= wooden stirrer not
> neccessisarily a
> rp> spoon, (it is often used for, but not exclusively for, porridge).
>
> So?
What did you say it was, again?
>
> rp> Birl=turn;turn round;spin;rotate;whirl round;revolve or even pour out
> or,
> rp> perhaps even dance. --- you don't have to guess which one I intended
> as I
> rp> coupled it with spurtle to mean stir the porridge? What, though, if I
> had
> rp> intended it to mean, "Pour out"?
>
> What if you had? Doesn't affect anything I said.
Perhaps that may be due to an unduly closed mind.
>
> rp> Wha diz the="who does the", and not, "what does the". The first being
> good
> rp> Scots grammar while the second is bad English grammar,
>
> If you like. Again doesn't affect what I said.
It does for it shows clearely that your claim it is in English is wrong.
>
> The second is not bad English grammar, it is perfectly good in many
> dialects.
The fact though, is English is not a dialect of Scots, even although the
English does seem somewhat similar to the untrained ear.
>
> rp> By hiz lane="on his own", not necessarily anything to do with being
> either
> rp> alone or lonely,
>
> Indeed. Like by his lonesome.
Sorry, I will have to take your word for it as that phrase does not seem to
be in the Queen's English I was taught at school. It seems to be some form
of non-standard English. Perhaps a regional English dialect, slang or just
bad English grammar. It most certainly is not Scottish or even a regional
dialect of Scots or even Standard Scottish English. As far as I am aware the
word lonesome is classed by the COD as, "colleq":-
lonesome / adj.
1 solitary, lonely.
2 feeling lonely or forlorn.
3 causing such a feeling.
by (or on) one's lonesome colloq. all alone.
I note that it does not mention Scots, Irish or Welsh so I, "Jalouse", it is
English, "Colleq".
Jalouse v,=conjecture;deduce;imagine;presume;speculate;suspect. I believe
that this Scots word comes from the same Old French root that became,
"jealous", in English but came to the Scots by a different route and has a
different meaning. Not surprising when we consider our Auld Alliance with
France was your time of Old Enmity with the French while the English were
snuggled up to the Germans.
>
> rp> One may do something, "By hiz lane", in the middle of a crowd.
>
> One may be lonely in the middle of a crowd, so that is hardly
> pertinant. However, that is nothing to do with what I said.
No, but it does have lots to do with what I said and with what you failed to
get right in your attempt at translation from Scots into English.
>
> rp> There are many words in Scots that have no direct English
> rp> translation.
>
> There are many words in any dialect
I have no doubt about that as there are also several Scots dialects which
also have words not showing in the more accepted standard Scots. However, I
was not talking about English dialects nor was I talking about Scots
dialects, as it happens. I am, also, not au fait, (incidentally that is also
in the COD too), with many English dialects.
> which have no direct translation
> in other dialects. That is, more or less, what makes them dialects. If
> the words had synonyms in other dialects they would just be (possibly
> huge) differences in pronunciation of the same lexeme. Mind you it's
> hard to imagine how that could happen for non-trivial differences
> without someone intentionally coining a new word and everyone
> consciously adopting it as a synonym, perhaps to differentiate
> themselves from another group, even then the meanings would drift
> apart.
How on Earth do you come to that conclusion? Has it not crossed your mind
that those differences are entirely due to the history of the British Isles?
Let me give you a little local history that brought some words to Fife but
which never penetrated to other parts of Scotland, or indeed to the rest of
the Great Britain. At one time there was regular trade between the East Neuk
of Fife and the Dutch ports. Tangable traces of this Dutch trade can still
be seen in these East Neuk villages. Many of the roofs in these villages are
tiled with a particular kind of roofing tiles and these tiles came to Fife
due to the returning ships using these tiles as ballast or the return
voyage. Much more than tiles came to Fife for so did some Dutch people who
married Fifers. There are thus many more Dutch derivations in the Fife
Dialect of the Scots Language. Could there be any way that these same words
could creep into English when the English and Dutch were not exactly on good
terms at the time?
> alliances that brought about
>
> rp> Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean the same as,
> rp> "Dreich"?
>
> Manchester?
??????????
Seems you are again in error. I see no real connection between Dreich and
Manchester.
There is a long list of English words that are used in an attempt to
translate the word, "Dreich", but none of them, or combination of them,
actually manage to do so.
Dreich=bleak;depressing;dismal;drab;dreary;boring;wearisome;dull;godforsaken;monotonous;persistent;tardy;tedious
Please note that not a single one of those words has the anything to do with
rain, sleet or snow, or directly with weather. As a matter of fact, if I
were to use the term to describe a city I would probably use it to describe
how I feel about London. I can only jalouse you are making some kind of
connection between driech and rain as Manchester is reputed to be a very
rainy area. In this you are wrong as the word can be applied to a person.
The weather, obviously, can be dreich but it really is nothing to do with
water and a day can be muckle driech when there is not a single drop of
rain. Could it be that you are confusing driech with the English drench?
>
> Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean the same as "chair"?
> (OK, for the smart aleks I should include `other than "chair"').
Don't know but it may be one of the many words common to both English and
Scottish. I do know that the derivation is:- [Middle English via
Anglo-French chaere, Old French chaiere from Latin cathedra, from Greek
kathedra 'seat'] So considering the Auld Alliance it is quite probable a
moot point how the word arrived in Britain and when.
>
> Words are, with very few exceptions, all individual. They carry about
> masses of semantic baggage making exact synonyms very rare. "All
> translators are traitors" and all that.
There must be very few words that are not derived from somewhere else or
from combinations of other words. Just to give you little insight to how
such things come about my old Grandfather, born 1872 - died 1948, was
telling his Grandchildren, (including me), what the future held for us and
he mentioned something we had not yet heard about that he described as, "aa
pikturkist". From his description we later came to recognise his description
of this wondrous machine to be a Television. Now translating, "Pikturkist",
we get, "picture-chest", and that is not a bad description of, "The Box", we
are all so familiar with today. An invented word, perhaps, but no less valid
than the Greek, "tele", and the Latin, "visio". as for Auld Jimmie he did
not live long enough to see his predicted pikturkist.
>
> --
> Mail me as MYFIRSTNAME@MYLASTNAME.org.uk _O_
Where you and I disagree is in what comprises the Scottish language and what
comprises a, "dialect", of English. I instantly know the difference between
a Scot speaking Scots and one speaking Scots Standard English. I have no
doubt that Scots is a language in its own right and has a history at least
as long as the English while, with Standard Scots English, it is a moot
point if it is a dialect of English or a dialect of Scots. I can only
conclude that it is really the product of an amalgam of both languages.
Just as a small example. "Ah'll awa through the gate an wander doon the
street", is Scots Standard English while, "Ah'll gan ben the yett an
stravaig ben the gate", is Scots. Note:- the Scots gate is a street, or way.
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
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| | From: | Michilín | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Tue, 18 Jan 2005 03:58:49 GMT |
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| On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:40:09 -0000, "Robert Peffers"
wrote:
>
>"Richard Caley" wrote in message
>news:87651wkk39.fsf@pele.r.caley.org.uk...
>> Indeed. Like by his lonesome.
>
>Sorry, I will have to take your word for it as that phrase does not seem to
>be in the Queen's English I was taught at school. It seems to be some form
>of non-standard English. Perhaps a regional English dialect, slang or just
>bad English grammar. It most certainly is not Scottish or even a regional
>dialect of Scots or even Standard Scottish English. As far as I am aware the
>word lonesome is classed by the COD as, "colleq":-
It's very commonly used in rural North America. If I sat looking into
space, my wife would ask, "Are you lonesome, honey?"
Because my wife came from Nova Scotia and her speech was very archaic
and very similar to the Apalachian Scotch-Irish speech, I'll bet it's
a Scots-Irish word/expression.
Michilín
|
|
| | From: | Deirdre Sholto Douglas | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:13:09 -0600 |
|
|
|
Robert Peffers wrote:
>
> "Richard Caley" wrote in message
> > rp> By hiz lane="on his own", not necessarily anything to do with being
> > either
> > rp> alone or lonely,
> >
> > Indeed. Like by his lonesome.
>
> Sorry, I will have to take your word for it as that phrase does not seem to
> be in the Queen's English I was taught at school. It seems to be some form
> of non-standard English.
You could call it non-standard...it seems to
be a common expression in America, which
is the first place I ever heard it.
> There is a long list of English words that are used in an attempt to
> translate the word, "Dreich", but none of them, or combination of them,
> actually manage to do so.
> Dreich bleak;depressing;dismal;drab;dreary;boring;wearisome;dull;
> godforsaken;monotonous;persistent;tardy;tedious
I've heard Yiddish speakers use "dreck" to
convey the sentiment of something not being
worthwhile. Words which refer to concepts
usually don't have direct synonyms, so ex-
pecting a one-for-one translation may be a
bit optimistic on your part.
> > Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean the same as "chair"?
> > (OK, for the smart aleks I should include `other than "chair"').
> Don't know but it may be one of the many words common to both English and
> Scottish.
"Seat", assuming you're using it to mean a
piece of furniture where one parks one's
arse. If you mean the individual in charge
of keeping order in a committee, then
"moderator" or "head".
Deirdre
|
|
| | From: | Robert Peffers | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:03:22 -0000 |
|
|
| "Deirdre Sholto Douglas" wrote in message
news:41EC5495.4C5CD0A2@rcn.com...
>
>
> Robert Peffers wrote:
>>
>> "Richard Caley" wrote in message
>
>> > rp> By hiz lane="on his own", not necessarily anything to do with being
>> > either
>> > rp> alone or lonely,
>> >
>> > Indeed. Like by his lonesome.
>>
>> Sorry, I will have to take your word for it as that phrase does not seem
>> to
>> be in the Queen's English I was taught at school. It seems to be some
>> form
>> of non-standard English.
>
> You could call it non-standard...it seems to
> be a common expression in America, which
> is the first place I ever heard it.
>
>> There is a long list of English words that are used in an attempt to
>> translate the word, "Dreich", but none of them, or combination of them,
>> actually manage to do so.
>> Dreich bleak;depressing;dismal;drab;dreary;boring;wearisome;dull;
>> godforsaken;monotonous;persistent;tardy;tedious
>
> I've heard Yiddish speakers use "dreck" to
> convey the sentiment of something not being
> worthwhile. Words which refer to concepts
> usually don't have direct synonyms, so ex-
> pecting a one-for-one translation may be a
> bit optimistic on your part.
>
>> > Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean the same as "chair"?
>> > (OK, for the smart aleks I should include `other than "chair"').
>> Don't know but it may be one of the many words common to both English and
>> Scottish.
>
> "Seat", assuming you're using it to mean a
> piece of furniture where one parks one's
> arse. If you mean the individual in charge
> of keeping order in a committee, then
> "moderator" or "head".
>
> Deirdre
Frae auld Bob Peffers:
Now it has been a very long time, and I did not stick with it due to a
little matter of a war in a far flung corner of the East, but eta moi stol
and eta moi stool were, this is my table and this is my chair, in Russian.
Excuse the probable spelling errors for I never saw it written down and I
cannot remember which was which. So what about stool, (stools do sometimes
have a backrest).
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
|
|
| | From: | Michilín | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Tue, 18 Jan 2005 04:15:37 GMT |
|
|
| On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:03:22 -0000, "Robert Peffers"
wrote:
>"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" wrote in message
>news:41EC5495.4C5CD0A2@rcn.com...
>>
>>
>> Robert Peffers wrote:
>>>
>>> "Richard Caley" wrote in message
>>
>>> > rp> By hiz lane="on his own", not necessarily anything to do with being
>>> > either
>>> > rp> alone or lonely,
>>> >
>>> > Indeed. Like by his lonesome.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I will have to take your word for it as that phrase does not seem
>>> to
>>> be in the Queen's English I was taught at school. It seems to be some
>>> form
>>> of non-standard English.
>>
>> You could call it non-standard...it seems to
>> be a common expression in America, which
>> is the first place I ever heard it.
>>
>>> There is a long list of English words that are used in an attempt to
>>> translate the word, "Dreich", but none of them, or combination of them,
>>> actually manage to do so.
>>> Dreich bleak;depressing;dismal;drab;dreary;boring;wearisome;dull;
>>> godforsaken;monotonous;persistent;tardy;tedious
>>
>> I've heard Yiddish speakers use "dreck" to
>> convey the sentiment of something not being
>> worthwhile. Words which refer to concepts
>> usually don't have direct synonyms, so ex-
>> pecting a one-for-one translation may be a
>> bit optimistic on your part.
>>
>>> > Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean the same as "chair"?
>>> > (OK, for the smart aleks I should include `other than "chair"').
>>> Don't know but it may be one of the many words common to both English and
>>> Scottish.
>>
>> "Seat", assuming you're using it to mean a
>> piece of furniture where one parks one's
>> arse. If you mean the individual in charge
>> of keeping order in a committee, then
>> "moderator" or "head".
>>
>> Deirdre
>Frae auld Bob Peffers:
>Now it has been a very long time, and I did not stick with it due to a
>little matter of a war in a far flung corner of the East, but eta moi stol
>and eta moi stool were, this is my table and this is my chair, in Russian.
>Excuse the probable spelling errors for I never saw it written down and I
>cannot remember which was which. So what about stool, (stools do sometimes
>have a backrest).
Stul is a table; stol is a chair.
The spelling in English is identical to the Russian spelling if you
transpose the appropriate letters.
Michilín
|
|
| | From: | Deirdre Sholto Douglas | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:21:35 -0600 |
|
|
|
Robert Peffers wrote:
>
> "Deirdre Sholto Douglas" wrote in message
> news:41EC5495.4C5CD0A2@rcn.com...
> > "Seat", assuming you're using it to mean a
> > piece of furniture where one parks one's
> > arse. If you mean the individual in charge
> > of keeping order in a committee, then
> > "moderator" or "head".
> >
> Now it has been a very long time, and I did not stick with it due to a
> little matter of a war in a far flung corner of the East, but eta moi stol
> and eta moi stool were, this is my table and this is my chair, in Russian.
> Excuse the probable spelling errors for I never saw it written down and I
> cannot remember which was which. So what about stool, (stools do sometimes
> have a backrest).
I was of the impression "stool" was a very
specific type of seat...generally made of
wood and having but three legs as opposed
to a "chair" which had four legs or a "bench"
with a longer seat and two wide supports at
opposing ends. Chairs which only have one
central support (barber, dentist, whatever)
invariably have an adjective preceding them
which indicates they have a specific purpose.
Deirdre
|
|
| | From: | Richard Caley | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:36:19 GMT |
|
|
| In article , Robert Peffers (rp) writes:
rp> Spurtle may be, and often is Spirtle= wooden stirrer not
rp> neccessisarily a spoon, (it is often used for, but not exclusively
rp> for, porridge).
>> So?
rp> What did you say it was, again?
I didn't.
rp> Birl=turn;turn round;spin;rotate;whirl round;revolve or even pour out or,
rp> perhaps even dance. --- you don't have to guess which one I intended as I
rp> coupled it with spurtle to mean stir the porridge? What, though, if I had
rp> intended it to mean, "Pour out"?
>> What if you had? Doesn't affect anything I said.
rp> Perhaps that may be due to an unduly closed mind.
Perhaps due to me not saying anything about `birl', except implicitly
that it was not a purely scottish word since I didn't capitalise it.
rp> Wha diz the="who does the", and not, "what does the". The first being good
rp> Scots grammar while the second is bad English grammar,
>> If you like. Again doesn't affect what I said.
rp> It does for it shows clearely that your claim it is in English is
rp> wrong.
No it doesn't. It simply shows you have a fixation on some notion of
good and bad grammar forced on you in school. You can't show that
something is a separate language by showing it has differences from
some dialects of English.
>> The second is not bad English grammar, it is perfectly good in many
>> dialects.
rp> The fact though, is English is not a dialect of Scots, even although the
rp> English does seem somewhat similar to the untrained ear.
The fact is that you have provided no evidence to back up this claim.
You might start by definint what you think the important criterion
would be.
If you need a trained ear to tell the difference, then it's certainly
too close to be considered a separate language, except on the
political basis Norwegian is called a different language from Sweedish.
rp> By hiz lane="on his own", not necessarily anything to do with being either
rp> alone or lonely,
>> Indeed. Like by his lonesome.
rp> Sorry, I will have to take your word for it as that phrase does
rp> not seem torp be in the Queen's English I was taught at school.
I can't help it if you were taught about unicorns and faries.
rp> No, but it does have lots to do with what I said and with what you
rp> failed to get right in your attempt at translation from Scots into
rp> English.
I made no attempt to translate anything. You should read what I write,
not what you'd like to imagine I wrote.
>> [that words drift]
rp> How on Earth do you come to that conclusion? Has it not crossed
rp> your mind that those differences are entirely due to the history
rp> of the British Isles?
Except for those related to geology, I would think it more likely they
are due to people's use of their language:-).
rp> Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean the same as,
rp> "Dreich"?
>> Manchester?
rp> ??????????
rp> Seems you are again in error. I see no real connection between Dreich and
rp> Manchester.
You ever been there?
rp> Dreich=bleak;depressing;dismal;drab;dreary;boring;wearisome;dull;godforsaken;monotonous;persistent;tardy;tedious
QED.
>> Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean the same as "chair"?
>> (OK, for the smart aleks I should include `other than "chair"').
rp> Don't know but it may be one of the many words common to both English and
rp> Scottish.
But it will mean different things in each. Indeed it will mean
different things to different people.
>> Words are, with very few exceptions, all individual. They carry about
>> masses of semantic baggage making exact synonyms very rare. "All
>> translators are traitors" and all that.
rp> There must be very few words that are not derived from somewhere else or
rp> from combinations of other words.
There are very few people who are not derrived from a combinatin of
others, that doesn't mean it's common to find interchaningable pairs
though. Language is constantly reinvented as we use it. Among other
things, this means that words shift in meaning constantly and so
synonyms rapidly fall apart, unless there is a concerted effort to
maintain them.
This is especially true across boundaries between groups which have
relatively limited contact or who choose to speak differently to each
other than within their group. So, once you get such a divide the ways
of speaking drit apart and you get dialects. At some point you may get
really fundamental changes and so a dividion between languages.
What you haven't shown is a fundamental difference between Scots and
what you are calling English. You have shown pronunciation
differences, and you have shown different words on each side, and
different meanings for shared words, but those are the kind of
differences which people mean when they use the word `dialect'.
For example, if the people of the central belt had been strongly
isolated from the people to the south during the shift from old to
middle english, they might have retained an inflected language with
dual forms as well as singlular and plural and so on and so forth, and
on top of that built more and more changes to end up with something
which was as different from their neighbours as it was from German and
Dutch.
But they didn't.
rp> Where you and I disagree is in what comprises the Scottish
rp> language and what comprises a, "dialect", of English.
You can dissagree about what constitutes a vector space, but you
aren't going to get anywhere arguing about maths using your personal
definition.
So far as I can tell, your entire argument is based on some kind of
irrational fear of the word `dialect'. You might as well be arguing
that the scotts terrier is not a breed of dog because breeds of dog by
definition occur only outside Scotland.
rp> I instantly know the difference between a Scot speaking Scots and
rp> one speaking Scots Standard English.
I instantly know the difference between Brummie speaking Brummie and a
Brummie speaking standard English English. This does not make Brummie
a separate language.
rp> I have no doubt that Scots is a language in its own right
I don't doubt it. What I doubt, based on your performance here, is
that you have any basis for that lack of doubt, other than some kind
of desire for validation and a feeling that a having a language would
make southern Scotland more important in some way.
rp> Just as a small example. "Ah'll awa through the gate an wander
rp> doon the street", is Scots Standard English while, "Ah'll gan ben
rp> the yett an stravaig ben the gate", is Scots. Note:- the Scots
rp> gate is a street, or way.
No! And all this time I thought all those roads called something-gate
where I grew up were really pieces of computer logic!
--
Mail me as MYFIRSTNAME@MYLASTNAME.org.uk _O_
|<
|
|
| | From: | Robert Peffers | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:53:52 -0000 |
|
|
|
"Richard Caley" wrote in message
news:87zmz7jijo.fsf@pele.r.caley.org.uk...
> In article , Robert Peffers (rp) writes:
>
> rp> Spurtle may be, and often is Spirtle= wooden stirrer not
> rp> neccessisarily a spoon, (it is often used for, but not exclusively
> rp> for, porridge).
>
>>> So?
>
> rp> What did you say it was, again?
>
> I didn't.
>
> rp> Birl=turn;turn round;spin;rotate;whirl round;revolve or even pour out
> or,
> rp> perhaps even dance. --- you don't have to guess which one I intended
> as I
> rp> coupled it with spurtle to mean stir the porridge? What, though, if I
> had
> rp> intended it to mean, "Pour out"?
>
>>> What if you had? Doesn't affect anything I said.
>
> rp> Perhaps that may be due to an unduly closed mind.
>
> Perhaps due to me not saying anything about `birl', except implicitly
> that it was not a purely scottish word since I didn't capitalise it.
While you may well be correct as to the word, "birl", not being exclusively
a Scottish word, I cannot find it in the Concise Oxford Dictionary. It is,
after al, "Concise". I do have a vague memory of coming across it in the
strange context of a musical reference. Whether this was a technical,
jargon, type usage I do not know. I have heard it used, (in Scots), to mean
the type of warbling note produced from the kind of whistle with a pea in
it.
> > rp> Wha diz the="who does the", and not, "what does the". The first
> > being good
> rp> Scots grammar while the second is bad English grammar,
>
>>> If you like. Again doesn't affect what I said.
>
> rp> It does for it shows clearely that your claim it is in English is
> rp> wrong.
>
> No it doesn't. It simply shows you have a fixation on some notion of
> good and bad grammar forced on you in school. You can't show that
> something is a separate language by showing it has differences from
> some dialects of English.
The fact is, though, that claiming Lowland Scots is actually English is a
false concept. Firstly the language you are now describing as English could
not possibly be, "English", as there was on such country as England, as we
know it now, when the original language first developed. Neither was there a
country called Scotland, as we know it now. Therefore, whatever it was it
was neither English or Scottish. We cannot know the actual language of the
Mesolithic hunters/fishers, the Neolithic farmers nor the metal workers of
the early and late Bronze ages. Probably the Roman invasion was the first
real tab we have on recorded languages. So, if your linguistic knowledge is
more extensive than my own, and I am not a linguist. So what
language/languages did the older tribes use?
What of the Caereni, Cornovii,Carnonacae, Smertae, Lugi, Decantae, Vacomaci
Taezali, Creones and Caladonii in the North and the others in the South of
Britain? What languages did they all speak?
Realistically we know that 500BC-500AD was dominated by Celtic immigrants
and Roman invaders. However, we know that the Roman invasion was only
partially successful and they only maintained a military dictatorship in the
Northern parts of what is now England and only scratched the surface in the
Celtic areas we now call Wales, Ireland and Scotland. The Iron Age way of
life continued almost undisturbed in these areas. Much of this also
continued during the Anglo-Saxon Conquests. it is hard to imagine that any
new language was imposed, or accepted by, those iron age peoples. So when
did England and Scotland first become the unified countries we know them as
today? After all as late as 1124 the borders of Scotland extended as far
south as Teesside:-
===============================================
1124
David I (r.1124-53)
Unity was restored when, on Alexander's death, David becomes King of Scots.
His reign is one of the most important in Scotland's history, extending
Scottish borders to the River Tees, including all of Northumberland. David I
institutes many administrative changes into Scotland including laws, early
schools and gives much Scottish land to his Norman friends.
So tell me, what language were those, "Scots", on Teesside using at that
time? Did they speak Scots, English or Norman French? Were not the records
of the time written in the Latin of the clergy, (who got that name for the
very good reason that they were clerics or clerks)., but what were the
common people using there in their everyday speech? Were the people in the
south using the same language? What of the people to the North of the
Forth/Clyde valley? Were they all Gaelic speakers? I think not as the
Northern Islands were much more under the influence of the countries we now
call Scandinavia. They used a Laich German rooted Insular Scots language
very close to the Lowland Scots of the Northeast. This, in turn is close to
the Laich Germanic language of the central Lowlands. Many Scots still use
this language to this day. Did it, though, come directly from the southern
language of Britain that was to become English or did it co-exist with it
and with them sharing similar roots? At what point did that southern
language become English? At what point did the literary language of England
extend to the whole of what we now call England?
Here are my conclusions. English only became a unified language when the
administration of the entire country made it necessary to circulate the
unified rulers edicts and laws to the entire English Nation. These did not
apply to Scotland and the Old Scots language can be seen being used
throughout a unified Scotland for the very same administrative purpose as
the Old English of that nation. Much of both nations administrative records
are still on record and can be examined. Common administrative, (unified),
language only became necessary only after first the Union of the Crowns and
then after the Treaty of Union. The records of this unified government are
still on record.
See here a short BBC article on, "The Queen's English", where you will note
that the author continually ignores the simple fact that the history of the
language they speak of totally ignores the existence of Scotland, Wales and
Ireland and the simple fact that each of these countries had a different
early history than England. This is a very common fault on the BBC who very
rarely differentiate between England, the UK, the UK & N.I., and The British
Isles. Just last week we witnessed a BBC news report that carried the
headline, "UK version of the FBI". The article, though, did NOT apply to the
UK nor could the particular new organization be in any way comparable to the
FBI. This was a police organization formed to fight organized crime.
However it was, (A), not a UK organization being only for police forces in
England & Wales.
(B), not like the FBI as the FBI was USA really national body that operates
across state lines.
The UK is four countries joined as a political state and having a common
monarch while the USA is a collection of political states joined together
as one federal country and without a monarch.
The BBC, and to lesser extent, the other broadcasters and medias are very
unsure of what the proper terms are. The actual title of the whole political
state is, "The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. The
correct term of the whole land mass is actually, "The British Isles", which
includes The Irish Republic, The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. So why
must we question the various medias as to what they mean by, "The Nation",
The Whole Country", The UK and England? it gets rather tedious to constantly
be made to question almost every news item to ascertain if it actually
applies to Scotland. I actually had to call at my local police station to
find out that the much publicised, new "Stop and test for Drugs Driving",
police powers did not apply in Scotland. Then we have to question many,
"National", weather reports that speak of, "in the North", to find out to
the north of what? To we Scots, Newcastle, Manchester and Liverpool are not,
"in the North". Is it any wonder, then, these same rules have to be applied
when the language they call, "English", when writing such articles as the
one I quoted ignore the very existence of Scotland, Wales and Ireland.
she>>> The second is not bad English grammar, it is perfectly good in many
>>> dialects.
>
> rp> The fact though, is English is not a dialect of Scots, even although
> the
> rp> English does seem somewhat similar to the untrained ear.
>
> The fact is that you have provided no evidence to back up this claim.
Yes I have. At least as much as you have for calling the language of the
entire present country of England, "English". Tell me when, "English", was
first developed and to what geographic entity it was then applied? Tell us
when Northumberland moved from a different kingdom to a part of England and
what was their language when Northumberland was independent and when it was
part of the Kingdom of Scotland? On what authority is the language of
Scotland called English?
>
> You might start by definint what you think the important criterion
> would be.
>
> If you need a trained ear to tell the difference, then it's certainly
> too close to be considered a separate language, except on the
> political basis Norwegian is called a different language from Sweedish.
>
> rp> By hiz lane="on his own", not necessarily anything to do with being
> either
> rp> alone or lonely,
>
>>> Indeed. Like by his lonesome.
>
> rp> Sorry, I will have to take your word for it as that phrase does
> rp> not seem torp be in the Queen's English I was taught at school.
>
> I can't help it if you were taught about unicorns and faries.
Strange, then, that the Unicorn features on Royal standards and the only
person mentioning fairies is yourself.
>
> rp> No, but it does have lots to do with what I said and with what you
> rp> failed to get right in your attempt at translation from Scots into
> rp> English.
>
> I made no attempt to translate anything. You should read what I write,
> not what you'd like to imagine I wrote.
>
>>> [that words drift]
>
> rp> How on Earth do you come to that conclusion? Has it not crossed
> rp> your mind that those differences are entirely due to the history
> rp> of the British Isles?
>
> Except for those related to geology, I would think it more likely they
> are due to people's use of their language:-).
Very true and that is exactly what History is. It is the recording of the
events of the day by the people concerned in them and then, later, the
attempts of others to understand the events. Actually many historic events
throughout the World were passed down by word of mouth. Have you ever looked
at Icelandic history?
>
> rp> Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean the same as,
> rp> "Dreich"?
>
>>> Manchester?
>
> rp> ??????????
>
> rp> Seems you are again in error. I see no real connection between Dreich
> and
> rp> Manchester.
>
> You ever been there?
>
> rp>
> Dreich=bleak;depressing;dismal;drab;dreary;boring;wearisome;dull;godforsaken;monotonous;persistent;tardy;tedious
>
> QED.
>
>>> Can anyone suggest a single English word to mean the same as "chair"?
>>> (OK, for the smart aleks I should include `other than "chair"').
>
> rp> Don't know but it may be one of the many words common to both English
> and
> rp> Scottish.
>
> But it will mean different things in each. Indeed it will mean
> different things to different people.
>
>>> Words are, with very few exceptions, all individual. They carry about
>>> masses of semantic baggage making exact synonyms very rare. "All
>>> translators are traitors" and all that.
>
> rp> There must be very few words that are not derived from somewhere else
> or
> rp> from combinations of other words.
>
> There are very few people who are not derrived from a combinatin of
> others, that doesn't mean it's common to find interchaningable pairs
> though. Language is constantly reinvented as we use it. Among other
> things, this means that words shift in meaning constantly and so
> synonyms rapidly fall apart, unless there is a concerted effort to
> maintain them.
>
> This is especially true across boundaries between groups which have
> relatively limited contact or who choose to speak differently to each
> other than within their group. So, once you get such a divide the ways
> of speaking drit apart and you get dialects. At some point you may get
> really fundamental changes and so a dividion between languages.
>
> What you haven't shown is a fundamental difference between Scots and
> what you are calling English. You have shown pronunciation
> differences, and you have shown different words on each side, and
> different meanings for shared words, but those are the kind of
> differences which people mean when they use the word `dialect'.
>
> For example, if the people of the central belt had been strongly
> isolated from the people to the south during the shift from old to
> middle english, they might have retained an inflected language with
> dual forms as well as singlular and plural and so on and so forth, and
> on top of that built more and more changes to end up with something
> which was as different from their neighbours as it was from German and
> Dutch.
>
> But they didn't.
>
> rp> Where you and I disagree is in what comprises the Scottish
> rp> language and what comprises a, "dialect", of English.
>
> You can dissagree about what constitutes a vector space, but you
> aren't going to get anywhere arguing about maths using your personal
> definition.
>
> So far as I can tell, your entire argument is based on some kind of
> irrational fear of the word `dialect'. You might as well be arguing
> that the scotts terrier is not a breed of dog because breeds of dog by
> definition occur only outside Scotland.
>
> rp> I instantly know the difference between a Scot speaking Scots and
> rp> one speaking Scots Standard English.
>
> I instantly know the difference between Brummie speaking Brummie and a
> Brummie speaking standard English English. This does not make Brummie
> a separate language.
>
> rp> I have no doubt that Scots is a language in its own right
>
> I don't doubt it. What I doubt, based on your performance here, is
> that you have any basis for that lack of doubt, other than some kind
> of desire for validation and a feeling that a having a language would
> make southern Scotland more important in some way.
>
> rp> Just as a small example. "Ah'll awa through the gate an wander
> rp> doon the street", is Scots Standard English while, "Ah'll gan ben
> rp> the yett an stravaig ben the gate", is Scots. Note:- the Scots
> rp> gate is a street, or way.
>
> No! And all this time I thought all those roads called something-gate
> where I grew up were really pieces of computer logic!
>
Of course you are probably under another great misapprehension as many of
the place names ending in gate actually may have been actual, "English
type", gates. This due to the many walled towns and cities that had such
gates in their walls. One must first check if the name is in Scots or
English to be sure. Without being too pedantic about it, it could be that
place names used the word differently. I honestly can never remember any
Scots speaker using the word in a place name context. It seemed, "yett",
referred to, "a gate", and, "gate", to, "a Road". I really never gave much
thought to such as, "Cannongate", Cowgate", and so on as being in the
Scottish Language. Probably due to their coupled words seemingly being in
English. Scots do not use, "cow", so if it was the road of the cow or the
gate of the cow the name would have been one of Cooyett/coogate or kowgate/
kowyett or, variations of quow,kye and quow. To also tell you the truth I
could not tell you if Scots use a different name for a cannon. Lets face it
we did not have too many large cannon lying around the farm, village or area
where I was brought up and learning to speak Scots. For some reason the
spelling, "cannoune", comes to mind. So there it is. I am off the opinion
that names like the Cannongate and Cowgate are actually the English names
for gates rather than street names in the Scots. Unless, of course, someone
knows differently.
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
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| | From: | T N Nurse | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:18:05 +0000 |
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| In article ,
"Robert Peffers" wrote:
> "Richard Caley" wrote in message
> news:87zmz7jijo.fsf@pele.r.caley.org.uk...
> > In article , Robert Peffers (rp) writes:
> >
> > rp> Spurtle may be, and often is Spirtle= wooden stirrer not
> > rp> neccessisarily a spoon, (it is often used for, but not exclusively
> > rp> for, porridge).
> >
> >>> So?
> >
> > rp> What did you say it was, again?
> >
> > I didn't.
> >
> > rp> Birl=turn;turn round;spin;rotate;whirl round;revolve or even pour out
> > or,
> > rp> perhaps even dance. --- you don't have to guess which one I intended
> > as I
> > rp> coupled it with spurtle to mean stir the porridge? What, though, if I
> > had
> > rp> intended it to mean, "Pour out"?
> >
> >>> What if you had? Doesn't affect anything I said.
> >
> > rp> Perhaps that may be due to an unduly closed mind.
> >
> > Perhaps due to me not saying anything about `birl', except implicitly
> > that it was not a purely scottish word since I didn't capitalise it.
>
> While you may well be correct as to the word, "birl", not being exclusively
> a Scottish word, I cannot find it in the Concise Oxford Dictionary.
birl (burl): v. To spin; To cause (a floating log) to spin rapidly
by rotating with feet; to cause to spin e.g. coin.
n. A whirring noise.
Origin - blend of birr(1) and whirl
Source: American Heritage Dictionary
> jargon, type usage I do not know. I have heard it used, (in Scots), to mean
> the type of warbling note produced from the kind of whistle with a pea in
> it.
See the n. definition above.
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| | From: | Richard Caley | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:41:19 GMT |
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| In article , Robert Peffers (rp) writes:
>> Perhaps due to me not saying anything about `birl', except implicitly
>> that it was not a purely scottish word since I didn't capitalise it.
rp> While you may well be correct as to the word, "birl", not being
rp> exclusively a Scottish word, I cannot find it in the Concise
rp> Oxford Dictionary.
Well, I don't think I learned it up here and it's in the Shorter as
`sco and north'.
rp> Firstly the language you are now describing as English could not
rp> possibly be, "English", as there was on such country as England,
rp> as we know it now, when the original language first
rp> developed.
And so Italian can not possibly be Italian and German can not possibly
be German?
rp> Neither was there a country called Scotland, as we know it
rp> now.
So Scots is not Scots?
rp> We cannot know the actual language of the Mesolithic
rp> hunters/fishers, the Neolithic farmers nor the metal workers of
rp> the early and late Bronze ages.
And that is sad for some but not relevent to a discussion of modern
speakers of modern languages. So, lets not wander off topic.
rp> Here are my conclusions. English only became a unified language when the
rp> administration of the entire country made it necessary to circulate the
rp> unified rulers edicts and laws to the entire English Nation.
What on earth you mean by `a unified language' is a complete mystery
to me. I think you are inventing your own jargon to opeate in a purely
idosyncratic world of discourse.
rp> [lots of irrelevant hobbyhorses about the FBI and geographical
rp> nomenclature]
Er, OK.
>> The fact is that you have provided no evidence to back up [the
>> claim of it being a separate language]
rp> Yes I have. At least as much as you have for calling the language of the
rp> entire present country of England, "English".
But I don't call the language of the entire present country of England
"English", since lots of people in England speak Urdu and lots of
people in the rest of the world speak English.
This is not a matter of geography.
rp> Tell me when, "English", was first developed
Tell me when periwinkles first evolved.
Both questions are unanswerable since they are attempts to draw a line
on a continuum.
rp> and to what geographic entity it was then applied?
Languages are not defined by geography.
rp> Tell us when Northumberland moved from a different kingdom to a
rp> part of England and what was their language when Northumberland
rp> was independent and when it was part of the Kingdom of Scotland?
Languages are not defined by politics.
(at least not usefully. Turning serbo-croat into serbian and croatian
doesn't actually change how people are speaking, though it will no
doubt have effects down the line).
rp> On what authority is the language of Scotland called English?
On what authority if the language of England called English. You are
back to unintersting arguments about names. The question is not what
it is called, but what it's relationship is to other dialects.
>> I can't help it if you were taught about unicorns and faries.
rp> Strange, then, that the Unicorn features on Royal standards and the only
rp> person mentioning fairies is yourself.
But you keep talking about mythical things like `the queens English',
a supposed dialect used by no one anywhere and which no one can
identify.
>> No! And all this time I thought all those roads called something-gate
>> where I grew up were really pieces of computer logic!
rp> Of course you are probably under another great misapprehension as many of
rp> the place names ending in gate actually may have been actual, "English
rp> type", gates.
Only if the city had fractal walls. "Gate" for street is from old
norse and so is common in street names across what was the danelaw.
rp> I really never gave much thought to such as, "Cannongate",
rp> Cowgate", and so on as being in the Scottish Language. Probably
rp> due to their coupled words seemingly being in English.
You are making a distinction which doesn't exist and hence your
confusion.
Now, to get back to the issue, please tell us what your criteria for
saying that two dialects are from different languages, and then
demonstrate that it is sensible to put such a divide between Scots and
what you are calling English, according to that criterion.
It can't be so hard, given that you are so certain. Unless, of course,
you are determined to hold the conclusion for political and
psychological reasons and have no reasoned argument to support it.
--
Mail me as MYFIRSTNAME@MYLASTNAME.org.uk _O_
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| | From: | Richard Tobin | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit 8m) | | Date: | 18 Jan 2005 17:01:45 GMT |
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| In article ,
Robert Peffers wrote:
>While you may well be correct as to the word, "birl", not being exclusively
>a Scottish word, I cannot find it in the Concise Oxford Dictionary.
The OED says:
[A modern word: apparently onomatopoeic; having probably
association with birr, whirr, whirl, hurl, and Sc. dirl, pirl, in
all of which there is a reference to vibration or rotation and its
sound.]
1. intr. To move on with rotatory motion, as a rifle bullet; also fig.
2. To revolve or rotate rapidly and with characteristic noise.
3. trans. To cause anything to rotate rapidly; to spin (a coin in
the air or on the table); hence to toss a coin on the table as
one's contribution to a joint fund, to contribute one's share.
-- Richard
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| | From: | Robert Peffers | | Subject: | Re: Feeding the needy/lonely( was Scottish quake donations hit £8m) | | Date: | Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:38:39 -0000 |
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wrote in message
news:1105965743.153916.126830@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> That's all awful interesting but I can't see how meaning like
> "manage,succeed, master;control;dominate" (wicker baskets aside) would
> make semantic sense in what you wrote.
> Surely you used 'maun' meaning 'must' in what you wrote. Given not,
> what did you mean.
> I doubt you'll can find a dictionary quote to uphold your threap.
>
Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
How about, just for starters, page 404 - The Concise Scots Dictionary- ISBN
1-902930-01-0, (paperback), or , ISBN 1-902930-00-2, (hardback)?
Then, again, you may like to try the online version of a Scottish dictionary
at:-
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/index.html
So there you are - go and find it for yourself- to quote one who posted to
scs when I used to go there, "I cannot be arsed".
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
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