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 | | From: | czarfire1 at aol.com | | Subject: | AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 22 Jan 2005 03:35:37 -0800 |
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 |
One of the great stereotypes of Americans is that most Americans
are anti-intellectual and un-cultured, at least in the group of states
refered to as the Red States. This is usually oppossed to a stereotype
that Europeans and the Japanese and Australians and New Zealanders are
sophisticated and intellectual.
Like most stereotypes these are simply not true. Many Americans,
even in red states, are quite intellectual and cultured and many a
goodly number of Europeans, Australians, and Japanese are rather
anti-intellectual and un-cultured, especially if they are from another
English speaking country.
What can we do to reserve this stereotype of Americans and get the
stereotype that Americans are an intellectual and sophisticated people
that like the finer things in life like art, opera, and classical music
and jazz?
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| | From: | Alfred Montestruc | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 13:58:46 -0800 |
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| Luke7351@aol.com wrote:
> Alfred Montestruc wrote:
>
> > Europeans see a significant number of such men and their families
> that
> > tend to be less well educated, and make the assumption that because
a
> > significant fraction of the tourists they see are like that, that
> most
> > Americans are ignorant.
>
> This is perhaps why we shouldn't let people like you out of the
> country.
Like who? You do not know me, or much of anything about me.
> Or maybe back into the country.
Yo mama still walking that streetcorner to put your lazy ass through
school? I gather you still need more lessons in the dozens?
> Besides, wealth or the lack thereof, or education or the lack thereof
> does not necessarily lead to acculturation
Wealth makes leasure possible. If you are too busy working to feed
yourself and your family to do anything else, you cannot get an
education and absoulutly cannot get "acculturation". So bluntly
without wealth, acculturation is impossible.
What the Europeans tend to be surprised at is first generation
millionare workaholics who's parents were dirt poor and never got the
education or "acculturation" that they take for granted any wealthy man
must have.
> any more than hospitals are
> meant to kill people(most people die in hospitals, but hospitals are
> meant to save lives).
But many people die in hospitals that would not have died if they
stayed home and not done the elective surgery. Hospitals are all BS
aside businesses where the primary function is to make money.
> Both your assumptions and Lee's are wrong.
Well it would be nice if you would explain what assumtions you think
are being made, and by who before you assert them wrong. I see nothing
in what you assert here that shows anything I said to be wrong.
But then you tend to assume a lot.
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| | From: | Alfred Montestruc | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 02:28:42 -0800 |
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czarfire1@aol.com wrote:
> One of the great stereotypes of Americans is that most Americans
> are anti-intellectual and un-cultured, at least in the group of
states
> refered to as the Red States. This is usually oppossed to a
stereotype
> that Europeans and the Japanese and Australians and New Zealanders
are
> sophisticated and intellectual.
>
> Like most stereotypes these are simply not true. Many Americans,
> even in red states, are quite intellectual and cultured and many a
> goodly number of Europeans, Australians, and Japanese are rather
> anti-intellectual and un-cultured, especially if they are from
another
> English speaking country.
>
> What can we do to reserve this stereotype of Americans and get the
> stereotype that Americans are an intellectual and sophisticated
people
> that like the finer things in life like art, opera, and classical
music
> and jazz?
This stereotype is caused by the fact that Europeans see American
tourists more than anyone else, and American tourists are made up of
wealthy Americans. Unlike Europe, uneducated Americans can become
quite wealthy, much more often and much more so than in other nations.
Example would be an American plumber with an 8th grade education who
becomes a multi-millionaire by starting his own plumbing business. He
is not stupid, but he is quite ignorant on many subjects, as he is a
workaholic, and is likely to have simple tastes.
Europeans see a significant number of such men and their families that
tend to be less well educated, and make the assumption that because a
significant fraction of the tourists they see are like that, that most
Americans are ignorant.
They forget to properly compare this man to their own plumber, or
electrician who cannot become as wealthy as this American for reasons
of tax structure and other governmental and social constraints that are
smaller, or do not exist in the USA.
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| | From: | aspqrz at pacific.net.au | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:57:01 GMT |
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| On 23 Jan 2005 02:28:42 -0800, "Alfred Montestruc"
wrote:
>They forget to properly compare this man to their own plumber, or
>electrician who cannot become as wealthy as this American for reasons
>of tax structure and other governmental and social constraints that are
>smaller, or do not exist in the USA.
I don't think its necessarily that a French Plumber can't become rich,
but that French "high society" wouldn't accept him as a member as
easily as US Society might, no matter how rich he became.
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
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| | From: | The Horny Goat | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:36:15 GMT |
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| On 23 Jan 2005 02:28:42 -0800, "Alfred Montestruc"
wrote:
>This stereotype is caused by the fact that Europeans see American
>tourists more than anyone else, and American tourists are made up of
>wealthy Americans. Unlike Europe, uneducated Americans can become
>quite wealthy, much more often and much more so than in other nations.
>Example would be an American plumber with an 8th grade education who
>becomes a multi-millionaire by starting his own plumbing business. He
>is not stupid, but he is quite ignorant on many subjects, as he is a
>workaholic, and is likely to have simple tastes.
It isn't just American tourists.
I assume "overpaid, over-ed and over here" is a term you've heard
before? (Keeping in mind that while the US Army officer corps is for
the most part well educated the PBI often isn't - and that in fact the
US military has been one of the more important educational
institutions for the poorer classes in the post-WW2 era)
>Europeans see a significant number of such men and their families that
>tend to be less well educated, and make the assumption that because a
>significant fraction of the tourists they see are like that, that most
>Americans are ignorant.
A significant fraction of Americans ARE ignorant like that.
A significant number of Europeans are that way too - as demonstrated
in frequent international football matches. It isn't just the yobs and
Le Pen you know.
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| | From: | Noel | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 22 Jan 2005 08:08:37 -0800 |
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czarfire1@aol.com wrote:
> One of the great stereotypes of Americans is that most Americans
> are anti-intellectual and un-cultured, at least in the group of
states
> refered to as the Red States. This is usually oppossed to a
stereotype
> that Europeans and the Japanese and Australians and New Zealanders
are
> sophisticated and intellectual.
---Japanese, Australians, and New Zealanders? I haven't
come across Americans or Europeans stereotyping any of
these three nationalities as "sophisticated and intel-
lectual." I mean, Japan's great contributions to world
culture have included tentacle and Pokemon, and
the American stereotype of Ozzies is ... Crocodile
Dundee.
What say you to that, my good man?
> Like most stereotypes these are simply not true. Many Americans,
> even in red states, are quite intellectual and cultured and many a
> goodly number of Europeans, Australians, and Japanese are rather
> anti-intellectual and un-cultured, especially if they are from
another
> English speaking country.
Aren't all Australians technically from an English-
speaking country?
Anyway, the stereotype of Americans as crude Nascar-
watching Kid-Rockin' Survivor-surviving Apprentices
with a puritanical streak exists in Europe because
it's, well, got at least a grain of truth in it.
The anti-intellectual current in American politics
AFAIK is not as strong on the Continent. It certainly
isn't in France or Spain.
Although it is, of course, intellectually remiss to
tar an entire nation with a popular average, I tend
to take great pride in being from a nation of nacos,
and envy Oz for being even more so.
Best,
Noel, shameless stereotyper
P.S. "Naco" is a great Mexican word. An classic
essay from a country that correctly views itself as
even less sophisticated than America is titled,
"Nueve Nacos en el Super Bowl."
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| | From: | rosignol | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:54:31 -0800 |
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| In article <1106410117.418283.65690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Noel" wrote:
[zap]
> ---Japanese, Australians, and New Zealanders? I haven't
> come across Americans or Europeans stereotyping any of
> these three nationalities as "sophisticated and intel-
> lectual." I mean, Japan's great contributions to world
> culture have included tentacle and Pokemon, and
> the American stereotype of Ozzies is ... Crocodile
> Dundee.
>
> What say you to that, my good man?
Europeans seem to stereotype other Europeans as intellectual, and
non-europeans as not. As they're generally basing this on familiarity
with *European* high culture, this is understandable... if rather
insular.
> Anyway, the stereotype of Americans as crude Nascar-
> watching Kid-Rockin' Survivor-surviving Apprentices
> with a puritanical streak exists in Europe because
> it's, well, got at least a grain of truth in it.
No.
There *is* a grain of truth to it- that part is correct- but a lot of
people in europe and elsewhere- don't seem to understand that the reason
something is on TV is because it is strange, unusual, spectacular- i.e.,
_not_ _typical_. NASCAR, Kid Rock, Survivor, and the Apprentice aren't
on TV because everyone does that stuff, or even because everyone wants
to.
Extrapolating from what you see on TV to create a mental image of
'typical Americans' is not logically sound, but a hell of a lot of
people who should know better do it anyways.
[zap]
--
al Qaeda delenda est
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| | From: | Doug Hoff | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:58:56 -0600 |
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"Noel" wrote in message
news:1106410117.418283.65690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> czarfire1@aol.com wrote:
>> One of the great stereotypes of Americans is that most Americans
>> are anti-intellectual and un-cultured, at least in the group of
> states
>> refered to as the Red States. This is usually oppossed to a
> stereotype
>> that Europeans and the Japanese and Australians and New Zealanders
> are
>> sophisticated and intellectual.
>
> ---Japanese, Australians, and New Zealanders? I haven't
> come across Americans or Europeans stereotyping any of
> these three nationalities as "sophisticated and intel-
> lectual." I mean, Japan's great contributions to world
> culture have included tentacle and Pokemon,
let's not forget karaoke, a boon to drunken extroverts everywhere!
--
----------
Doug
douglasx.hoffx@gmail.com (take out x'es)
www.althist.com
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| | From: | Kevrob | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 09:12:55 -0800 |
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| aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
> On 23 Jan 2005 02:14:35 -0800, "Kevrob" wrote:
>
> >aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
> >> On 22 Jan 2005 16:09:29 -0800, "Kevrob"
wrote:
> >
> >> >Though both Texicans and denizens of Oz can be rangers.
> >>
> >> Nope. Drovers. There were Mounted Troopers of the NSW
Constabulary,
> >> but they were just that ... police who were mounted. Nothing like
> >> Texas Rangers ... sorta in between the English Bobby with no guns
and
> >> the US Rangers/Sheriffs/whatever armed to the teeth.
>
> >Phil, I was thinking of OZian BUSHrangers.
>
> Oh, *criminals* ... as opposed to Texas *Rangers* who were *law
> enforcement* officials.
>
> Duh.
>
> Silly me.
>
> How could I not have seen the completely nonexistent connection ;-)
Criminals, freedom fighters against Pommy oppression,
it's all the same, isn't it? :)
Kevin
(humming "Wild Colonial Boy" as I type...)
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| | From: | Luke7351 at aol.com | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 14:35:56 -0800 |
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Alfred Montestruc wrote:
> > This is perhaps why we shouldn't let people like you out of the
> > country.
>
> Like who? You do not know me, or much of anything about me.
I know enough about you to say I'd rather not have you serve as a
cultural ambassador to, say, anywhere. Unless you count Texas as its
own country.
What I do know about you makes you questionable in your ethics and your
thinking processes. That would make you a dubious person at best. I
don't want to have to deal with the sight of you, let alone attempt a
conversation.
> > Or maybe back into the country.
>
> Yo mama still walking that streetcorner to put your lazy ass through
> school?
Oh, good. I'm glad you're busting out the vintage 1996 insults. And ad
hominem attacks? Since you are obviously too poor to understand Latin,
it's "Against the man." For a forty six year old, that's pretty
pathetic. Then again, you've talked about torturing your ex-wive's
boyfriend to death, so you must be a class act.
> I gather you still need more lessons in the dozens?
Bring it on, old man, we'll go round for round. Or, well, for one
round. One can't imagine that you've got that much intellectual
fortitude, guzzling beer and watching NASCAR, waiting for the rapture.
But we know you hold a grudge against the US like no one else can. I
mean, it's been what, 140 years, and you weren't born until long after
the last veteran was dead.
> > Besides, wealth or the lack thereof, or education or the lack
thereof
> > does not necessarily lead to acculturation
>
> Wealth makes leasure possible.
I'm unaware of this "leasure" activity. Leathermaking, perhaps, or some
other industrial activity. Wealthy people usually buy leather, and not
make it.
If it's leisure you're suggesting, that's a different issue. Some sorts
of wealth can create some leisure time. But that wealth affects a
relatively small percent of the population. Yet Shakespeare and Homer
are still widely read.
If you were really smart, you wouldn't blather on about class war, but
you would've come back with Susan Sontag, perhaps.
> If you are too busy working to feed
> yourself and your family to do anything else, you cannot get an
> education and absoulutly cannot get "acculturation". So bluntly
> without wealth, acculturation is impossible.
Not neccessarily. The US is an upwardly mobile society, as you have
noted. That is, unless you are a recalcitrant thug and a bigot. In such
a society, one can start relatively poor and become rather wealthier.
That wealth can open opportunties to further acculturation, if it is so
wished by the owner of that wealth. Furthermore, the US puts great
stock in education and acculturation as expressed through taste. So
even if someone is an uncultured boor, hasn't read Kant and Plimpton
and Hagel and Sontag and Thomas Mann, they can fake their way through a
meal without using the salad fork on the steak, and be passably
familiar with haut culture.
> What the Europeans tend to be surprised at is first generation
> millionare workaholics who's parents were dirt poor and never got the
> education or "acculturation" that they take for granted any wealthy
man
> must have.
I really don't understand your implying this about Europe, again and
again, Al. Europe is a big place--let's settle for Iceland in the West
and the Urals in the East, from the Artic Circle to the Pillars of
Hercules and the Hellenespont. That's a lot of different languages and
cultures.
Do you mean, perhaps, Western Europeans? That leaves us most of the
member states of NATO, which are still rather diverse.
Really, what you should say is "My understanding is that Europeans are
a bunch of snobs to Americans because they're European and unfairly
expect everyone to be cultured." You really do make an excellently
xenophobic Grand Dragon. You can burn crosses on my neighbors' lawn any
time.
> But many people die in hospitals that would not have died if they
> stayed home and not done the elective surgery.
I didn't say what kind of surgery. Besides, what you view as elective,
someone else may view as a necessity. The extraordinarily wealthy, that
leisure class you hate, could see things as needed that aren't.
Besides, it's their choice to do as they want with their money, since
they have that dreadful leisure time.
> Hospitals are all BS
> aside businesses where the primary function is to make money.
That's only because they allow the birth of mixed race babies in your
eyes, and serve blacks and whites equally. That's quite terrible that
they don't lable darkie blood and white blood seperately, eh?
> > Both your assumptions and Lee's are wrong.
>
> Well it would be nice if you would explain what assumtions you think
> are being made, and by who before you assert them wrong.
Lee assumes a variety of nationalities are sophisticated by stereotype.
The tools he uses are about as good as those that lead to the arrest of
people driving while black. Something I'm sure you cheer. He lacks a
definition for sophisticated, for either Americans or others.
You expand on this wrong assertion by introducing issues of class
warfare and xenophobia.
> I see nothing
> in what you assert here that shows anything I said to be wrong.
I didn't have to assert anything to prove you're wrong, Al. It comes
out of your mouth, and is so prima facae.
> But then you tend to assume a lot.
It's easy to assume a lot when dealing with you, Al. You're like
Shedder, from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Predictable, intellectually
limited, two-D character.
Had you thought, you would've noticed that my commentary was meant in a
not-serious spirit. Now that you've asked that it take that turn, I
won't mind ripping you to widdle bits.
Cheers
L
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| | From: | aspqrz at pacific.net.au | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:25:24 GMT |
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| On 23 Jan 2005 14:35:56 -0800, Luke7351@aol.com wrote:
>Bring it on, old man, we'll go round for round. Or, well, for one
>round. One can't imagine that you've got that much intellectual
>fortitude, guzzling beer and watching NASCAR, waiting for the rapture.
>But we know you hold a grudge against the US like no one else can. I
>mean, it's been what, 140 years, and you weren't born until long after
>the last veteran was dead.
For someone who allegedly knows latin ... or at least enough to claim
to know what "ad hominem" means ... you have shown very little ... no,
lets make that *no* ... sign of being able to conceive that it may
well apply to your little rants as well.
"Let he who is without sin ... " and all that.
Or, if you are of a non-religious bent, "People in glass houses ... "
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
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| | From: | boleslawski at forpresident.com | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 22 Jan 2005 14:02:25 -0800 |
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| This is the first I've ever heard of Aussies having a "sophisticated
and intellectual" stereotype. The Aussie stereotype is closer to
the Texan stereotype than it is to the stereotype of anywhere
in Europe. The Australian stereotype is basically that of the
drunken Down Under cowboy.
ObWI: give Texans a stereotype for being intellectual and
sophisticated.
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| | From: | robert j. kolker | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:07:51 -0500 |
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boleslawski@forpresident.com wrote:
>
> ObWI: give Texans a stereotype for being intellectual and
> sophisticated.
Stephen Weinberg, Nobel Laureate and Texan.
Bob Kolker
>
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| | From: | The Horny Goat | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:49:26 GMT |
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| On 22 Jan 2005 14:02:25 -0800, boleslawski@forpresident.com wrote:
>This is the first I've ever heard of Aussies having a "sophisticated
>and intellectual" stereotype. The Aussie stereotype is closer to
>the Texan stereotype than it is to the stereotype of anywhere
>in Europe. The Australian stereotype is basically that of the
>drunken Down Under cowboy.
One of the key reasons the Monty Python Philosophy sketch went over so
well..."Oh Emmanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely
stable, Martin Heidigger was a boozy beggar..."
Yup - real sophisticated and intellectual!
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| | From: | mike stone | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 08:55:07 GMT |
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| >From: The Horny Goat lcraver@home.ca
>boleslawski@forpresident.com wrote:
>
>>This is the first I've ever heard of Aussies having a "sophisticated
>>and intellectual" stereotype. The Aussie stereotype is closer to
>>the Texan stereotype than it is to the stereotype of anywhere
>>in Europe. The Australian stereotype is basically that of the
>>drunken Down Under cowboy.
>
>One of the key reasons the Monty Python Philosophy sketch went over so
>well..."Oh Emmanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely
>stable, Martin Heidigger was a boozy beggar..."
>
>Yup - real sophisticated and intellectual!
I once heard of a party of British academics who went to Australia to contact
the local intelligentsia - but got there only to find she was on holiday in NZ.
--
Mike Stone - P'boro Eng
Good King Wenceslas look out
At the Feast of Stephen
All the twisters are about
At ye Festive Season
Living by a forest fence
No one but a liar would
Say he'd walked three miles from thence
Just to gather firewood
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| | From: | aspqrz at pacific.net.au | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:48:05 GMT |
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| On 22 Jan 2005 14:02:25 -0800, boleslawski@forpresident.com wrote:
>This is the first I've ever heard of Aussies having a "sophisticated
And its the first this Aussie has, too.
>and intellectual" stereotype. The Aussie stereotype is closer to
>the Texan stereotype than it is to the stereotype of anywhere
>in Europe. The Australian stereotype is basically that of the
>drunken Down Under cowboy.
Drover, thank you very much ... or kangaroo herder ... but *never* a
"cowboy" ... wrong continent.
That would be a "drunken up over cowboy" ;-)
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
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| | From: | Kevrob | | Subject: | Re: Word Alert === Extinct Word Found To Survive in Australia!!!! | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 12:23:42 -0800 |
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| David Tenner wrote:
> There's a "Drovers Journal" (dealing with the beef industry)
published in
> the Chicago suburb of Lincolnshire, Illinois. And one still sees
"Drovers
> Banks" or "Farmers and Drovers Banks" in various midwestern states
(though
> I doubt that many of their customers know what a drover is). There
was
> even one in Chicago (probably dating back from the days of the
stockyards)
> until fairly recently.
Sticking with the Chicago connection, there was the Irish-American
folk/rock band, seen in Hollywood flicks such as "Backdraft."
http://www.thedrovers.com/
I imagine that, as in Scotland, people in Ireland still use
the word.
Kevin
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| | From: | Raymond Speer | | Subject: | Word Alert === Extinct Word Found To Survive in Australia!!!! | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 07:37:52 -0600 |
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|
The word "drover" is used in Nebraska as a description for any person
who guides a group of animals from one location to another.
Elsewhere, I had thought the word was obsolete, replaced by "cowboy," or
"herder," or "shepherd." Phil has shown me that "drover" still survives
far, far away in Australia.
Who would have thought that?
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| | From: | Steven Howell | | Subject: | Re: Word Alert === Extinct Word Found To Survive in Australia!!!! | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:53:26 GMT |
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| On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 07:37:52 -0600, raystwo@webtv.net (Raymond Speer) wrote:
>
>The word "drover" is used in Nebraska as a description for any person
>who guides a group of animals from one location to another.
>
>Elsewhere, I had thought the word was obsolete, replaced by "cowboy," or
>"herder," or "shepherd." Phil has shown me that "drover" still survives
>far, far away in Australia.
>
>Who would have thought that?
The people at alt.usage.english might want to know about that.
--
Steven Howell
Why do we park in driveways and drive on parkways?
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| | From: | aspqrz at pacific.net.au | | Subject: | Re: Word Alert === Extinct Word Found To Survive in Australia!!!! | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:30:22 GMT |
|
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| On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:53:26 GMT, Steven Howell
wrote:
>On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 07:37:52 -0600, raystwo@webtv.net (Raymond Speer) wrote:
>
>>
>>The word "drover" is used in Nebraska as a description for any person
>>who guides a group of animals from one location to another.
>>
>>Elsewhere, I had thought the word was obsolete, replaced by "cowboy," or
>>"herder," or "shepherd." Phil has shown me that "drover" still survives
>>far, far away in Australia.
>>
>>Who would have thought that?
>
>The people at alt.usage.english might want to know about that.
That its in use in Australia ;-) ???
I expect they already know, unless they're all from Nebraska ;-)
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
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| | From: | David Tenner | | Subject: | Re: Word Alert === Extinct Word Found To Survive in Australia!!!! | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:11:47 -0000 |
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| raystwo@webtv.net (Raymond Speer) wrote in news:28548-41F3A8B0-16
@storefull-3176.bay.webtv.net:
>
> The word "drover" is used in Nebraska as a description for any person
> who guides a group of animals from one location to another.
>
> Elsewhere, I had thought the word was obsolete, replaced by "cowboy," or
> "herder," or "shepherd." Phil has shown me that "drover" still survives
> far, far away in Australia.
>
> Who would have thought that?
>
>
There's a "Drovers Journal" (dealing with the beef industry) published in
the Chicago suburb of Lincolnshire, Illinois. And one still sees "Drovers
Banks" or "Farmers and Drovers Banks" in various midwestern states (though
I doubt that many of their customers know what a drover is). There was
even one in Chicago (probably dating back from the days of the stockyards)
until fairly recently.
--
David Tenner
dtenner@ameritech.net
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| | From: | Bob Scott | | Subject: | Re: Word Alert === Extinct Word Found To Survive in Australia!!!! | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:54:59 +0000 |
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| Raymond Speer writes
>
>The word "drover" is used in Nebraska as a description for any person
>who guides a group of animals from one location to another.
>
>Elsewhere, I had thought the word was obsolete, replaced by "cowboy," or
>"herder," or "shepherd." Phil has shown me that "drover" still survives
>far, far away in Australia.
>
>Who would have thought that?
>
It still survives in Scotland as well.
The word, that is, rather than the profession - these days the sheep &
cattle get from A to B by lorry...
AIUI shepherds looked after the flocks wherever they were whereas the
drovers only involvement was to walk them to (& presumably from) market.
--
Bob Scott SFC1000 Pegaso 650 RD350LC
"I was at the lowest point in my life - my house left me, the bank
reposessed my wife, my dog made me redundant, my boss was leaking oil and my
bike died - then I found the word of Sochiro..."
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| | From: | gseibert at sentex.net | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:11:41 -0500 |
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| On 22 Jan 2005 03:35:37 -0800, "czarfire1@aol.com"
wrote:
>
>
>One of the great stereotypes of Americans is that most Americans
>are anti-intellectual and un-cultured, at least in the group of states
>refered to as the Red States. This is usually oppossed to a stereotype
>that Europeans and the Japanese and Australians and New Zealanders are
>sophisticated and intellectual.
>
Austrailians?????!!!!!???
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| | From: | ncwaite at hotmail.com | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 24 Jan 2005 00:09:29 -0800 |
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The Horny Goat wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2005 14:02:25 -0800, boleslawski@forpresident.com wrote:
>
> >This is the first I've ever heard of Aussies having a "sophisticated
> >and intellectual" stereotype. The Aussie stereotype is closer to
> >the Texan stereotype than it is to the stereotype of anywhere
> >in Europe. The Australian stereotype is basically that of the
> >drunken Down Under cowboy.
>
> One of the key reasons the Monty Python Philosophy sketch went over
so
> well..."Oh Emmanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely
> stable, Martin Heidigger was a boozy beggar..."
>
> Yup - real sophisticated and intellectual!
And of course, there is Sir Les Patterson, Australian cultural attach=E9
..=2E.
Cheers,
Nigel.
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| | From: | Alfred Montestruc | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 19:48:06 -0800 |
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Luke7351@aol.com wrote:
> Alfred Montestruc wrote:
>
> > > This is perhaps why we shouldn't let people like you out of the
> > > country.
> >
> > Like who? You do not know me, or much of anything about me.
>
> I know enough about you to say I'd rather not have you serve as a
> cultural ambassador to, say, anywhere. Unless you count Texas as its
> own country.
>
> What I do know about you makes you questionable in your ethics and
your
> thinking processes. That would make you a dubious person at best. I
> don't want to have to deal with the sight of you, let alone attempt a
> conversation.
Then why are you doing it??
> > > Or maybe back into the country.
> >
> > Yo mama still walking that streetcorner to put your lazy ass
through
> > school?
>
> Oh, good. I'm glad you're busting out the vintage 1996 insults. And
ad
> hominem attacks? Since you are obviously too poor to understand
Latin,
> it's "Against the man." For a forty six year old, that's pretty
> pathetic. Then again, you've talked about torturing your ex-wive's
> boyfriend to death, so you must be a class act.
More like vintage 1976 street kid thank you very much I turned 18 that
year. Who started the ad homonym attacks in this discussion or in any
discussion between the two of us? You know very well it was not me in
any discussion between the two of us at all let alone this one. In
each case you are the individual that chooses to use that form of
argument. It shows you intellectual weakness by the way.
Oh, since IIRC you were the one with a spelling fetish, my
spell-checker indicates that you misspelled "homonym" and that mine
is the correct spelling. But if you can prove otherwise with
references I shall be happy to retract.
>
> > I gather you still need more lessons in the dozens?
>
> Bring it on, old man, we'll go round for round. Or, well, for one
> round. One can't imagine that you've got that much intellectual
> fortitude, guzzling beer and watching NASCAR, waiting for the
rapture.
I don't watch NASCAR, I don't guzzle beer, unless you count a glass or
two every few days with a meal as "guzzling", which my doctor says is
good for me, and I am not religions.
> But we know you hold a grudge against the US like no one else can.
No you do not, because I do not.
I want Americans to be honest about their history, and learn from
mistakes, not glorify them. Getting 620,000 Americans killed in the
War Between the States was a huge and totally avoidable mistake. This
neglects the fact that roughly double that number of American soldiers
were maimed and an unknown (but probably lower) number of civilians
were killed and maimed, and we do not know how many people suffered
serious mental illness over this like PTSD. I have known some veterans
with that from Vietnam and it is not a picnic, and could only have been
much worse from a much longer bloodier war where the people you were
killing were your own countrymen. No sane person would deny that is a
truly horrific price to pay for anything.
My position is that nothing good came of that war that could not be
gotten cheaper or that we were not better off without. I have bothered
to look up the cost of the war to the US government alone. That figure
in and of itself was enough to buy every slave in the south at pre-war
prices. Paying 620,000+ lives and 1.2+ million maimed over and above
that was just shear stupidity. Plus the immense damage to the economic
infrastructure of the south.
The south's position was crystal clear and their actions quite
predictable. Had Lincoln let the lower south secede, the USA would
keep VA, NC, AR, MO and TN, all without any fight at all. Read the
history of the secession crisis if you doubt me, Lincoln drove the
upper south to secession.
If the lower south was allowed to secede in peace, then in the USA due
to the massive change in demographics with the exit of the lower south,
slavery in the upper south would end quickly, legally and without a
fight as it did in states like New York, and Pennsylvania. With slavery
over with in the USA then slow steady political and economic pressure
could be brought to bear on the rump CSA to end slavery w/o a fight and
it would work as it did with Brazil and other nations. All this
without squandering 620,000 young lives, and all the rest.
If I have a flaw in this it is in being adamant that it is wrong to
glorify the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of thousands of young
Americans.
> I
> mean, it's been what, 140 years, and you weren't born until long
after
> the last veteran was dead.
Teaching lies about history can lead to making the same mistakes over
again. Those who fail to learn from history are condemed to repeat
mistakes.
>
> > > Besides, wealth or the lack thereof, or education or the lack
> thereof
> > > does not necessarily lead to acculturation
> >
> > Wealth makes leasure possible.
>
> I'm unaware of this "leasure" activity. Leathermaking, perhaps, or
some
> other industrial activity. Wealthy people usually buy leather, and
not
> make it.
I caught you on the ad homonym spelling above, and I never claimed to
be an expert speller, or that it is a reasonable test of intellect.
> If it's leisure you're suggesting, that's a different issue. Some
sorts
> of wealth can create some leisure time. But that wealth affects a
> relatively small percent of the population. Yet Shakespeare and Homer
> are still widely read.
You seem to be thinking that you and the American people are not
wealthy by the standards of the past. The average American of 1800 had
to work far more hours to get far less. We are all very wealthy set
next to this average American of 1800 or even 1900.
Our current wealth with respect to our ancestors makes our leisure and
so acculturation possible. Please to recall that it was not all that
long ago that most people could not read, and the biggest reason for
this was that they had little money or time to learn to do it.
>
> If you were really smart, you wouldn't blather on about class war,
I did not, I was speaking of the well known fact that it is easier to
get rich legally (as in not being a crook) in the USA than in most
other nations.
> but
> you would've come back with Susan Sontag, perhaps.
Who? Googleing yeah so what? She sounds LAME--
Isabel Paterson, or Rose Wilder Lane, or Ayn Rand would be more likely.
http://www.cato.org/special/threewomen/paterson.html
http://www.cato.org/special/threewomen/wilder-lane.html
http://www.cato.org/special/threewomen/rand.html
>
> > If you are too busy working to feed
> > yourself and your family to do anything else, you cannot get an
> > education and absoulutly cannot get "acculturation". So bluntly
> > without wealth, acculturation is impossible.
>
> Not neccessarily. The US is an upwardly mobile society,
WHY?? That is a critical question.
>as you have
> noted. That is, unless you are a recalcitrant thug and a bigot.
No, I think the examples of Al Capone, and Henry Ford (who was a huge
bigot and bought into the whole protocols of Zion nonsense) and many
other thugs and bigots shows that this is true for thugs and bigots as
well.
> In such
> a society, one can start relatively poor and become rather wealthier.
> That wealth can open opportunties to further acculturation, if it is
so
> wished by the owner of that wealth. Furthermore, the US puts great
> stock in education and acculturation as expressed through taste.
Dead wrong. Americans worship success in business AKA money, then
fame/ entertainment value a distant second. Chris Rock has a cool
routine where he discusses how American's worship money and ATM's are
our temples. Funny, but with a large ring of truth to it. Education
only as it is good for making money or for solving a problem,
acculturation as in high-brow "lit-rat-chure" can go hang as far as
most Americans are concerned. Books films and plays that can amuse
plays well and makes money, crap that critics like that is held to be
high-brow "lit-rat-chure" that is not entertaining, can shove it as far
as the average american is concerned.
Example, I intend to see Stone's "Alexander", but I recognize that it
is not entertaining enough for the typical American, and may in the
future be seen as great art. I have not yet seen it, and it might be
a bomb, but I am guessing from Olly Stone's previous work and that this
is supposed to be a labor of love for him.
> So
> even if someone is an uncultured boor, hasn't read Kant and Plimpton
> and Hagel and Sontag and Thomas Mann, they can fake their way through
a
> meal without using the salad fork on the steak, and be passably
> familiar with haut culture.
Those authors I am familier with are crap. Kant especially.
>
> > What the Europeans tend to be surprised at is first generation
> > millionare workaholics who's parents were dirt poor and never got
the
> > education or "acculturation" that they take for granted any wealthy
> man
> > must have.
>
> I really don't understand your implying this about Europe, again and
> again, Al. Europe is a big place--let's settle for Iceland in the
West
> and the Urals in the East, from the Artic Circle to the Pillars of
> Hercules and the Hellenespont. That's a lot of different languages
and
> cultures.
>
> Do you mean, perhaps, Western Europeans? That leaves us most of the
> member states of NATO, which are still rather diverse.
>
> Really, what you should say is "My understanding is that Europeans
are
> a bunch of snobs to Americans because they're European and unfairly
> expect everyone to be cultured." You really do make an excellently
> xenophobic Grand Dragon. You can burn crosses on my neighbors' lawn
any
> time.
>
> > But many people die in hospitals that would not have died if they
> > stayed home and not done the elective surgery.
>
> I didn't say what kind of surgery. Besides, what you view as
elective,
> someone else may view as a necessity. The extraordinarily wealthy,
that
> leisure class you hate, could see things as needed that aren't.
> Besides, it's their choice to do as they want with their money, since
> they have that dreadful leisure time.
>
> > Hospitals are all BS
> > aside businesses where the primary function is to make money.
>
> That's only because they allow the birth of mixed race babies in your
> eyes, and serve blacks and whites equally. That's quite terrible that
> they don't lable darkie blood and white blood seperately, eh?
Smirk. Anyone that disagrees with your political position with regard
to the south must be a bigot and racist. Oh my, can you spell ad
homonym? Can you spell "big lie"?
No actually, I think that the reason I think hospitals are businesses
is that yo mama is such a poor business woman in her profession that
she gives back change for a five.
>
> > > Both your assumptions and Lee's are wrong.
> >
> > Well it would be nice if you would explain what assumtions you
think
> > are being made, and by who before you assert them wrong.
>
> Lee assumes a variety of nationalities are sophisticated by
stereotype.
> The tools he uses are about as good as those that lead to the arrest
of
> people driving while black. Something I'm sure you cheer. He lacks a
> definition for sophisticated, for either Americans or others.
>
> You expand on this wrong assertion by introducing issues of class
> warfare and xenophobia.
No I do not. I point out observed facts. It is a fact that we in the
USA tend to have a much larger number of less well educated (as in w/o
even a high school diploma) millionares, who sometimes do the tourist
thing. This is a fact not subject to reasoned dispute. That Europeans
meet such Americans and make assumptions based on their own culture is
why a perception of Americans being uneducated exists. If you dispute
that fine, dig up some evidence. Such might be that the fraction of
French or German millionairs who have no better than a grade school
education is larger than that of the USA.
---snip
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| | From: | czarfire1 at aol.com | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 03:50:09 -0800 |
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Noel wrote:
> czarfire1@aol.com wrote:
> > One of the great stereotypes of Americans is that most Americans
> > are anti-intellectual and un-cultured, at least in the group of
> states
> > refered to as the Red States. This is usually oppossed to a
> stereotype
> > that Europeans and the Japanese and Australians and New Zealanders
> are
> > sophisticated and intellectual.
>
> ---Japanese, Australians, and New Zealanders? I haven't
> come across Americans or Europeans stereotyping any of
> these three nationalities as "sophisticated and intel-
> lectual." I mean, Japan's great contributions to world
> culture have included tentacle and Pokemon,
Okay, its true to the average person that the stereotypical
Japanese is not that sophisticated but I was influenced by my time in
Japan on my view of the Japanese. Most of them seem to be much more
fashion concious than the average American, its the most fashion
conscious place I've lived in, and this gives them an air of
sophistication.
and
> the American stereotype of Ozzies is ... Crocodile
> Dundee.
>
Okay, the Australians and New Zealanders don't have the stereotype
of being sophiscticated but the Europeans I've been around don't seem
to make fun of them as much for it as they do Americans.
\
>
> Anyway, the stereotype of Americans as crude Nascar-
> watching Kid-Rockin' Survivor-surviving Apprentices
> with a puritanical streak exists in Europe because
> it's, well, got at least a grain of truth in it.
There is a grain of truth in a good number of stereotypes but there
are millions of culturally sophisticated Americans living in the
coastal cities. I imagine that some of the faux populist rich
Republican politicians and their business people friends are culturally
sophsticated as well in private.
> The anti-intellectual current in American politics
> AFAIK is not as strong on the Continent. It certainly
> isn't in France or Spain.
True, the last President to be openly intellectual was Woodrow
Wilson.
> Although it is, of course, intellectually remiss to
> tar an entire nation with a popular average, I tend
> to take great pride in being from a nation of nacos,
> and envy Oz for being even more so.
>
> Best,
>
> Noel, shameless stereotyper
>
> P.S. "Naco" is a great Mexican word. An classic
> essay from a country that correctly views itself as
> even less sophisticated than America is titled,
> "Nueve Nacos en el Super Bowl."
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| | From: | The Horny Goat | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:36:15 GMT |
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| On 23 Jan 2005 03:50:09 -0800, "czarfire1@aol.com"
wrote:
>Okay, its true to the average person that the stereotypical
>Japanese is not that sophisticated but I was influenced by my time in
>Japan on my view of the Japanese. Most of them seem to be much more
>fashion concious than the average American, its the most fashion
>conscious place I've lived in, and this gives them an air of
>sophistication.
Actually you should see the influx of young 20-something Japanese
women shopping in Hong Kong....
>> Anyway, the stereotype of Americans as crude Nascar-
>> watching Kid-Rockin' Survivor-surviving Apprentices
>> with a puritanical streak exists in Europe because
>> it's, well, got at least a grain of truth in it.
>
>There is a grain of truth in a good number of stereotypes but there
>are millions of culturally sophisticated Americans living in the
>coastal cities. I imagine that some of the faux populist rich
>Republican politicians and their business people friends are culturally
>sophsticated as well in private.
You mention Survivor which is interesting since it's an
Americanization of a Swedish show (Expedition Robinson) which is
produced by two Brits (Mark Burnett and Charlie Parsons).
I may have mentioned here previously that I'm a big fan of the show
but I'll be the first to admit I consider it "cotton candy for the
brain". Intellectual stimulation I get elsewhere (one of those
elsewheres being here) I'd submit there probably would be as many of
the culturally sophisticated Brits watching the FA Cup final as
Wimbledon or the Derby.
>True, the last President to be openly intellectual was Woodrow
>Wilson.
Who would you think was the last British PM to be openly intellectual?
Not any of the last half dozen that's for sure. Certainly not
Churchill though he was known for his erudition and oratory.
I can't think of ANY Canadian PM I'd put in that catagory. Again,
certainly not Trudeau.
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| | From: | Luke7351 at aol.com | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 13:11:49 -0800 |
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Alfred Montestruc wrote:
> Europeans see a significant number of such men and their families
that
> tend to be less well educated, and make the assumption that because a
> significant fraction of the tourists they see are like that, that
most
> Americans are ignorant.
This is perhaps why we shouldn't let people like you out of the
country. Or maybe back into the country.
Besides, wealth or the lack thereof, or education or the lack thereof
does not necessarily lead to acculturation any more than hospitals are
meant to kill people(most people die in hospitals, but hospitals are
meant to save lives).
Both your assumptions and Lee's are wrong.
Cheers
L
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| | From: | Alfred Montestruc | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 12:07:26 -0800 |
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The Horny Goat wrote:
> On 23 Jan 2005 02:28:42 -0800, "Alfred Montestruc"
> wrote:
>
> >This stereotype is caused by the fact that Europeans see American
> >tourists more than anyone else, and American tourists are made up of
> >wealthy Americans. Unlike Europe, uneducated Americans can become
> >quite wealthy, much more often and much more so than in other
nations.
> >Example would be an American plumber with an 8th grade education who
> >becomes a multi-millionaire by starting his own plumbing business.
He
> >is not stupid, but he is quite ignorant on many subjects, as he is a
> >workaholic, and is likely to have simple tastes.
>
> It isn't just American tourists.
>
> I assume "overpaid, over-ed and over here" is a term you've heard
> before? (Keeping in mind that while the US Army officer corps is for
> the most part well educated the PBI often isn't - and that in fact
the
> US military has been one of the more important educational
> institutions for the poorer classes in the post-WW2 era)
>
> >Europeans see a significant number of such men and their families
that
> >tend to be less well educated, and make the assumption that because
a
> >significant fraction of the tourists they see are like that, that
most
> >Americans are ignorant.
>
> A significant fraction of Americans ARE ignorant like that.
A significant fraction of all nationalities are like that, but that a
significant fraction of american wealthy people are like that is very
different from other nationalities.
>
> A significant number of Europeans are that way too - as demonstrated
> in frequent international football matches. It isn't just the yobs
and
> Le Pen you know.
Not many of those ingnorant slob Europeans are wealthy enough to
constitute a significant fraction of globetrotting European tourists.
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| | From: | The Horny Goat | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:16:42 GMT |
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| On 23 Jan 2005 12:07:26 -0800, "Alfred Montestruc"
wrote:
>> A significant number of Europeans are that way too - as demonstrated
>> in frequent international football matches. It isn't just the yobs
>and
>> Le Pen you know.
>
>Not many of those ingnorant slob Europeans are wealthy enough to
>constitute a significant fraction of globetrotting European tourists.
I don't know - I seem to recall football officials in Spain and
Belgium who have memories of when the yobs last followed their boys
abroad...
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| | From: | Luke7351 at aol.com | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 17:31:38 -0800 |
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aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
\
> For someone who allegedly knows latin ... or at least enough to claim
> to know what "ad hominem" means ... you have shown very little ...
no,
> lets make that *no* ... sign of being able to conceive that it may
> well apply to your little rants as well.
Oh, I know it does. But he lowered the level of the level of the
discourse. Besides, I'm a teenager. I get to mature. He's a growed up.
He don't. Besides, what he's doing is causing trouble. I merely play
ball when it's fun and easy.
> "Let he who is without sin ... " and all that.
>
> Or, if you are of a non-religious bent, "People in glass houses ... "
Yeah, I know. It's just so easy to toy with him. It's like a cat with a
mouse, sort of. So I know it's cruel. But he's so little, and maliable,
but malign, and evil. I feel a need to keep public discourse honest and
clear in revealing Mr. Monstruc's strange beliefs and stranger actions.
And you yourself are not above ad hominem, sissy-marie. You were
relentless some months ago about another poster, in a nearly-obsessive
set of ad hominem rants. So speaking of glass houses, sir, you may find
ourself out in the cold.
Cheers
L
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| | From: | aspqrz at pacific.net.au | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:56:27 GMT |
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| On 23 Jan 2005 17:31:38 -0800, Luke7351@aol.com wrote:
>
>aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
>\
>> For someone who allegedly knows latin ... or at least enough to claim
>> to know what "ad hominem" means ... you have shown very little ...
>no,
>> lets make that *no* ... sign of being able to conceive that it may
>> well apply to your little rants as well.
>
>Oh, I know it does. But he lowered the level of the level of the
>discourse. Besides, I'm a teenager. I get to mature. He's a growed up.
>He don't. Besides, what he's doing is causing trouble. I merely play
>ball when it's fun and easy.
>
>> "Let he who is without sin ... " and all that.
>>
>> Or, if you are of a non-religious bent, "People in glass houses ... "
>
>Yeah, I know. It's just so easy to toy with him. It's like a cat with a
>mouse, sort of. So I know it's cruel. But he's so little, and maliable,
>but malign, and evil. I feel a need to keep public discourse honest and
>clear in revealing Mr. Monstruc's strange beliefs and stranger actions.
>
>And you yourself are not above ad hominem, sissy-marie. You were
>relentless some months ago about another poster, in a nearly-obsessive
>set of ad hominem rants. So speaking of glass houses, sir, you may find
>ourself out in the cold.
Oh.
You really *don't* understand the meaning of "ad hominem."
There is a difference between exposing the demonstrably very real (and
self admitted by said persons) and very unpleasant activities (as
displayed, increasingly, over several years) of people ... pointing
out the objective truth, no matter how much others didn't want to know
about it ... and attacking a poster for no better reason than you have
no other way to win.
In this case, you started the ad hominem attack against Al and, when
he reasonably responded by questioning your parentage and habits, you
whine about how its all so unfair.
So you're a teenager .. fine, doesn't change the increasing evidence
that your a whiny little twerp. And, no. That's not ad hominem, that's
an accurate description of your personality, as revealed on usenet.
As for me? Yeah, so I'm a crusty old arsehole with a bee in his
bonnet. And I don't suffer fools gladly. And you could change that to
"Raving lunatic paranoid motherfucka" or whatever, if it makes you
happier which, based on the evidence, it probably will.
I don't much like whiny little thirteen year olds, either, so I'd have
to agree with Al in this.
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
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| | From: | Jack Linthicum | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 22 Jan 2005 09:28:26 -0800 |
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|
| Just for jollies look up how many people from those sophisicated
countries come to the Phillistine higher education system.
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs98/web/98042.asp
http://opendoors.iienetwork.org/?p=50137
The number is being reduced, admitedly, perhaps voluntarily from the
overseas angle because so many graduate students inhale the sweet air
of liberty and want to exhale back home.
|
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| | From: | Dead man walking | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 22 Jan 2005 05:59:28 -0800 |
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|
Thats actually not hard to achieve.... Make the USA have a better
system of education than OTL's after WWII. this POD does another thing
besides increasing american exposure to igh culture, it also decreases
fundamentalist religiousity.
|
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| | From: | Kevrob | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 22 Jan 2005 16:09:29 -0800 |
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| aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2005 14:02:25 -0800, boleslawski@forpresident.com wrote:
>
> >This is the first I've ever heard of Aussies having a "sophisticated
>
> And its the first this Aussie has, too.
>
> >and intellectual" stereotype. The Aussie stereotype is closer to
> >the Texan stereotype than it is to the stereotype of anywhere
> >in Europe. The Australian stereotype is basically that of the
> >drunken Down Under cowboy.
>
> Drover, thank you very much ... or kangaroo herder ... but *never* a
> "cowboy" ... wrong continent.
>
> That would be a "drunken up over cowboy" ;-)
Though both Texicans and denizens of Oz can be rangers.
Kevin
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| | From: | aspqrz at pacific.net.au | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 05:23:25 GMT |
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| On 22 Jan 2005 16:09:29 -0800, "Kevrob" wrote:
>aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
>> On 22 Jan 2005 14:02:25 -0800, boleslawski@forpresident.com wrote:
>>
>> >This is the first I've ever heard of Aussies having a "sophisticated
>>
>> And its the first this Aussie has, too.
>>
>> >and intellectual" stereotype. The Aussie stereotype is closer to
>> >the Texan stereotype than it is to the stereotype of anywhere
>> >in Europe. The Australian stereotype is basically that of the
>> >drunken Down Under cowboy.
>>
>> Drover, thank you very much ... or kangaroo herder ... but *never* a
>> "cowboy" ... wrong continent.
>>
>> That would be a "drunken up over cowboy" ;-)
>Though both Texicans and denizens of Oz can be rangers.
Nope. Drovers. There were Mounted Troopers of the NSW Constabulary,
but they were just that ... police who were mounted. Nothing like
Texas Rangers ... sorta in between the English Bobby with no guns and
the US Rangers/Sheriffs/whatever armed to the teeth.
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
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| | From: | czarfire1 at aol.com | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 14:36:11 -0800 |
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The Horny Goat wrote:
> On 23 Jan 2005 03:50:09 -0800, "czarfire1@aol.com"
> wrote:
>
\
> Who would you think was the last British PM to be openly
intellectual?
> Not any of the last half dozen that's for sure. Certainly not
> Churchill though he was known for his erudition and oratory.
Clement Atlee? Harold Wilson?
> I can't think of ANY Canadian PM I'd put in that catagory. Again,
> certainly not Trudeau.
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| | From: | The Horny Goat | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:33:29 GMT |
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| On 23 Jan 2005 14:36:11 -0800, "czarfire1@aol.com"
wrote:
>> Who would you think was the last British PM to be openly
>intellectual?
>> Not any of the last half dozen that's for sure. Certainly not
>> Churchill though he was known for his erudition and oratory.
>
>Clement Atlee? Harold Wilson?
Attlee _possibly_ though Wilson - you have got to be joking.
Personally I'd rank Churchill higher than either and as I've said
previously I don't really consider Churchill that highly as an
intellectual much as I respect him in other departments...
>
>> I can't think of ANY Canadian PM I'd put in that catagory. Again,
>> certainly not Trudeau.
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| | From: | Alfred Montestruc | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 12:23:43 -0800 |
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aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
> On 23 Jan 2005 02:28:42 -0800, "Alfred Montestruc"
> wrote:
>
> >They forget to properly compare this man to their own plumber, or
> >electrician who cannot become as wealthy as this American for
reasons
> >of tax structure and other governmental and social constraints that
are
> >smaller, or do not exist in the USA.
>
> I don't think its necessarily that a French Plumber can't become
rich,
> but that French "high society" wouldn't accept him as a member as
> easily as US Society might, no matter how rich he became.
I will not say impossible, I will say it is much less probable given
the tax structure, and union rules, building codes and so on. That is
what I hear from immigrants from other parts of the world anyway.
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| | From: | boleslawski at forpresident.com | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 17:44:05 -0800 |
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Alfred Montestruc wrote:
> czarfire1@aol.com wrote:
> > One of the great stereotypes of Americans is that most Americans
> > are anti-intellectual and un-cultured, at least in the group of
> states
> > refered to as the Red States. This is usually oppossed to a
> stereotype
> > that Europeans and the Japanese and Australians and New Zealanders
> are
> > sophisticated and intellectual.
> >
> > Like most stereotypes these are simply not true. Many Americans,
> > even in red states, are quite intellectual and cultured and many a
> > goodly number of Europeans, Australians, and Japanese are rather
> > anti-intellectual and un-cultured, especially if they are from
> another
> > English speaking country.
> >
> > What can we do to reserve this stereotype of Americans and get the
> > stereotype that Americans are an intellectual and sophisticated
> people
> > that like the finer things in life like art, opera, and classical
> music
> > and jazz?
>
> This stereotype is caused by the fact that Europeans see American
> tourists more than anyone else, and American tourists are made up of
> wealthy Americans.
IMO, the most "uncultured" Americans - the Rush Limbaugh/Michael
Savage types - don't make it over to Europe too often unless they're
in the military. Most Americans in Europe tend to not be our "worst".
Unlike Europe, uneducated Americans can become
> quite wealthy, much more often and much more so than in other
nations.
> Example would be an American plumber with an 8th grade education who
> becomes a multi-millionaire by starting his own plumbing business.
He
> is not stupid, but he is quite ignorant on many subjects, as he is a
> workaholic, and is likely to have simple tastes.
>
> Europeans see a significant number of such men and their families
that
> tend to be less well educated, and make the assumption that because a
> significant fraction of the tourists they see are like that, that
most
> Americans are ignorant.
>
While the crass nouveau riche types did influence these stereotypes,
there
are other reasons as well, especially right now - BoP prevents me from
fully explaining them. I think they can be "guessed".
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| | From: | Kevrob | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 02:14:35 -0800 |
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| aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2005 16:09:29 -0800, "Kevrob" wrote:
> >Though both Texicans and denizens of Oz can be rangers.
>
> Nope. Drovers. There were Mounted Troopers of the NSW Constabulary,
> but they were just that ... police who were mounted. Nothing like
> Texas Rangers ... sorta in between the English Bobby with no guns and
> the US Rangers/Sheriffs/whatever armed to the teeth.
Phil, I was thinking of OZian BUSHrangers.
Kevin
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| | From: | mike stone | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 11:46:03 GMT |
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| >From: "Kevrob" kevrob@my-deja.com
>Phil, I was thinking of OZian BUSHrangers.
Perhaps a few _Bushwhackers_ wouldn't come amiss.
--
Mike Stone - P'boro Eng
Good King Wenceslas look out
At the Feast of Stephen
All the twisters are about
At ye Festive Season
Living by a forest fence
No one but a liar would
Say he'd walked three miles from thence
Just to gather firewood
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| | From: | aspqrz at pacific.net.au | | Subject: | Re: AH Challenge: Those Sophisticated Americans | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:54:49 GMT |
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| On 23 Jan 2005 02:14:35 -0800, "Kevrob" wrote:
>aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
>> On 22 Jan 2005 16:09:29 -0800, "Kevrob" wrote:
>
>> >Though both Texicans and denizens of Oz can be rangers.
>>
>> Nope. Drovers. There were Mounted Troopers of the NSW Constabulary,
>> but they were just that ... police who were mounted. Nothing like
>> Texas Rangers ... sorta in between the English Bobby with no guns and
>> the US Rangers/Sheriffs/whatever armed to the teeth.
>Phil, I was thinking of OZian BUSHrangers.
Oh, *criminals* ... as opposed to Texas *Rangers* who were *law
enforcement* officials.
Duh.
Silly me.
How could I not have seen the completely nonexistent connection ;-)
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
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