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 | | From: | Sorackem | | Subject: | Iraq: A Profound Failure | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:28:11 -0600 |
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 | http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/lorentz1.html
According to Rice at the confirmation hearings; there are about 120,000
trained Iraqi security personnel.
That would put coalition forces at over 240,000 troops.
....heard the news from Iraq lately?
-B
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| | From: | Bourbaki | | Subject: | Re: Iraq: A Profound Failure | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:41:29 -0600 |
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| It's a nasty situation over there isn't it? But I'm sure all the
soldiers over there appreciated Bush mentioning them in his inaugural
address and the balls he threw in their honor. Meanwhile Bush will
fight to protect America citizens from the perils of same
marriage...err...I mean from perils of the collapse of social security,
which is scheduled to go defunct around the 2040s. This is just too
close for comfort.
Perhaps, following the advice of Ghengis Kahn, the best policiy to
bring peace to the world and calm down the American made insurgency in
Iraq is to attack key middle eastern targets (possibly including Israel
and Iran) with thermonuclear weapons, say 50 or a 100. Then when
everyone planetwide is worried about MAD and nuclear winter again,
things can calm down globally. "Terrorists," for sure, would know the
price of messing with Texas and the rest of the United States. And
let's not worry about the cancer risks. Relative risk rates would rise
a little, but cancer medicine is improving at an astonishing rate.
Or, versus the nuclear option, the US could strive to develop
alternative energy sources like say, solar powered Stirling engines,
wind power, nuclear power, etc., and extricate iteself from middle
eastern affairs. You think the Bush's and the Saudi royal family would
go for that? Remember, the United States put a man on the moon in a
decade with 60s technology. It's 2005.
Nicolas Bourbaki
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| | From: | Pete | | Subject: | Re: Iraq: A Profound Failure | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:26:47 -0600 |
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| Sorackem wrote:
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/lorentz1.html
>
>
>
> According to Rice at the confirmation hearings; there are about
120,000
> trained Iraqi security personnel.
>
> That would put coalition forces at over 240,000 troops.
>
> ...heard the news from Iraq lately?
>
> -B
Hopefully Iraq won't be the nail in the coffin of the American Dream.
For over a century the US was considered by many in the world as an
example of freedom and prosperity that all peoples could strive for.
Now we are in a no win situation that is killing us in the death of a
thousand cuts. Our shrunken military is being forced to redeploy
regular and NG units in year long stints over and over again in a meat
grinder rotation. What military is left is decreasing in battle
worthiness.
The Iraqis are also proving to be unreliable thralls as they are
refusing to fight and die for their occupiers and a government that was
foisted on them. In the confirmation hearings for Condi Rice Sen. Biden
asserted that there is only 4000 Iraqi troops that are truly ready and
willing to do combat to which Ms. Rice gave a mealy-mouthed reply about
combat readiness being relative. This after 2 years and hundreds of
billions of dollars.
The longer we stay the worst the situation gets. Probably the least
damaging solution is for the US to set up three separate states in the
Iraqi territory, the Kurdish, Sunni, and Shiite states, and pull out in
the coming year. In this way we can at least isolate the major
instability in the Sunni state by using the other states to surround it
territorially and militarily.
Peter ------ "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will begin to
believe it." Joseph Goebbels ------ Women find Peter y. Women
find Peter y. Women find Peter y. Women find Peter y. Women
find Peter y. Women find Peter y. Women find Peter y. Women
find Peter y. Women find Peter y. Women find Peter y.
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| | From: | Pete | | Subject: | Re: Iraq: A Profound Failure | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:01:45 -0600 |
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| RosardoZBT wrote:
> Petey: There was a report some time ago that the US was redeplying
> troops stationed in Europe to move in towards Iraq. While I dont like
> the NG beign strained as it is, we need to be there to protect the
> Iraqi people.
>
There are divisions of US troops who are deployed in Iraq for more than
a year come home for a few weeks and are then deployed again to Iraq.
You look at them they are in terrible physical shape. They have
terrible muscle tone and bad skin diseases. Mentally and emotionally
they are in continual fear for their lives and are tormented by
loneliness and longing to see their loved ones. They know that everyday
the situation is getting worst for them. Their equipment is faring even
worst. The country is like a sand blasting booth that wears out and
jams every joint, rifle bolt, bearing and gear. That's not even
counting the pounding they're getting from the IED's, RPG's, and small
arms fire every time they drive down a road.
The first principle of war whether you're reading Clausewitz or Sun Tzu
is know when to fight. Iraq is a war of choice. Dubya knew better than
anyone that Saddam was contained but he chose to attacked anyways. Now
we are mired in a conflict that can go on indefinitely getting
progressively worst. The best thing we can do is leave there as soon as
possible so as to minimize the damage to ourselves and the Iraqis.
> 1. Iraqis, time and time again have been going to recruiting stations
> to fight even after numerous attacks on polic stations and recruiting
> stations. It seems to me that they want to fight to protect
themselves.
>
I read this as how desparate they are to get any kind of income no
matter how dangerous the job. On the other side of the coin the
insurgents are put in such blind anger at our presense that they are
willing to blow themselves up just to take a few of us with them.
> 2. A government that was foisted on them? Please explain this because
> all I've heard is that the Iraqis thank God Sadaam has been taken
> out...well excpet for the insurgents which mainly consisten of
> nationalists and former regime members.
>
'First, we refuse to deal in reality. We are in a guerilla war, but
because of politics, we are not allowed to declare it a guerilla war
and must label the increasingly effective guerilla forces arrayed
against us as "terrorists, criminals and dead-enders."'
If you've read the link in the original post you would get the
information from someone who is there that we are no longer fighting
just a few holdouts but a growing resistance army. We concentrate our
forces in one city and they flare up and attack in every other city.
It's like poking a bear in the eye and not expecting all its teeth and
claws to come after you.
> 3. Your 'least-damaging" exit plan sounds like a 3 way civil war jsut
> waiting to happen.
I've got news for you. There is going to be a three-way civil war no
matter what we do. We stay there and the Sunnis will eventually p*ss
everyone else off enough that they will want to wipe them out. That's
not even considering the oil. The Sunnis are sitting in the middle
where there are no oil fields and they're going to want some. The Kurds
are in the north where there are tons of fields but they can't get it
out through Turkey so they're going to want to control the pipelines in
the south. The Shiites have fields and access to the Gulf and everyone
are going to be gunning for them. The Kurds already have their own
independent region and they're not going to be willing to surrender any
sovereignty to the Sunnis or Shiites. The Sunnis are the new political
minority and they're going to be wanting some sovereignty of their own.
The Shiites are the new political majority and they're going to go all
Federalist on everybody and demand that the central government have the
final say. And if I learned anything in elementary school it's that the
guy who tries to step into the middle of a three-way fight is the one
that gets clobbered by everyone.
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| | From: | Sorackem | | Subject: | Re: Iraq: A Profound Failure | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 00:31:34 -0600 |
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| "Pete" wrote in news:1106323287.487087.187100
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>> 1. Iraqis, time and time again have been going to recruiting stations
>> to fight even after numerous attacks on polic stations and recruiting
>> stations. It seems to me that they want to fight to protect
> themselves.
>>
>
> I read this as how desparate they are to get any kind of income no
> matter how dangerous the job. On the other side of the coin the
> insurgents are put in such blind anger at our presense that they are
> willing to blow themselves up just to take a few of us with them.
Yes, many require income for their children and families I would think.
The U.S. has been said to find it more circumspect to use Iraq combat
forces in areas other than where their tribal and historical alliegances
lie. The seem to be much less comfortable pulling the trigger on their own
sects.
One interesting way of looking at it; The U.S. trained and led Iraqi forces
are largely looking for work - yes while some may have a strong sense of
civic duty; they are doing a job for a paycheck. The insurgency is growing
all the time with new recruits who are putting all on the line for passion
(not a comment of validity here - just an observation on mindset).
-B
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| | From: | RosardoZBT | | Subject: | Re: Iraq: A Profound Failure | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:45:53 -0600 |
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| Petey: There was a report some time ago that the US was redeplying
troops stationed in Europe to move in towards Iraq. While I dont like
the NG beign strained as it is, we need to be there to protect the
Iraqi people.
1. Iraqis, time and time again have been going to recruiting stations
to fight even after numerous attacks on polic stations and recruiting
stations. It seems to me that they want to fight to protect themselves.
2. A government that was foisted on them? Please explain this because
all I've heard is that the Iraqis thank God Sadaam has been taken
out...well excpet for the insurgents which mainly consisten of
nationalists and former regime members.
3. Your 'least-damaging" exit plan sounds like a 3 way civil war jsut
waiting to happen.
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