Relation between DSS & NT is decisive for understanding that First Christians associated with Zealots

Subject:	Relation between DSS & NT is decisive for understanding that First Christians associated with Zealots
Date:	Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:05:46 -0800 (PST)

On Jan 8, 1:49 pm, crunch wrote:
> On Jan 8, 12:09 pm, ADR wrote:
>...
> > On Jan 8, 8:03 am, crunch wrote:
> >...
> > > Please follow the arguments I give very closely -
>
> > > 1 Peter 5:13
> > > ------------------
>
> > > Papiashttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/1919
>
> > > "Eusebius approves of Papias when he confirms that =91the great and
> > > mighty Peter=92 was in Rome in the reign of Claudius (AD 41-54), and
> > > that Peter=92s teaching lay behind the gospel of Mark. Papias 'says t=
hat
> > > Peter mentions Mark in his first Epistle (1 Pet 5:13), and that he
> > > composed this in Rome itself, which they say that he himself
> > > indicates, referring to the city metaphorically as Babylon, in the
> > > words "the elect one in Babylon greets you, and Marcus my son".'"
>
> > > So, please note Papias' use of "metaphorically as Babylon".
> > > Yet, why does the writer of 1 Pet 5:13 use code? Does
> > > the writer of 1 Pet 5:13 use the secret language of Zealots,
> > > who wanted to use military means against Rome?
>
> > Who cares? Why is this at all important? Even in the unlikely case
> > that certain zealot terms were used, why is this particularly
> > important? One would have expected that people of the 1st century CE
> > from Palestine would use expressions typical of their area and their
> > period.
>
> Direct answer to your question - I am giving
> an argument that shows that the writers of 1 Peter 5:13
> and Rev 17,18 used the same device as the writer of
> CD 1: 5-10 as far as the use of codes by zealot nationalists
> because of their underground activities.
>
> -----
>
> Agrippa and Peterhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/3498
>
> "At a certain time Peter was in Rome, which he called by the pseudonym
> "Babylon".
> He had with him Silvanus (Silas) and "my son Mark", a symbolic son,
> similarly to
> "she who is at Babylon", a woman who sends greetings (1 Pet 5:12-13).
> He wrote
> the first epistle of Peter to Christians in the five Roman provinces
> into which
> Asia Minor (modern Turkey) was divided: Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia,
> Asia and
> Bithynia. (1 Peter 1:1)."
>
> -----
>
> Judas the Galilean and the Wrathhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_orig=
in/message/533
>
> "In view of the specificity with which the term 'Wrath' is used, I
> suggest that it had become a name, equivalent to 'the Occupation'. AD
> 6 was the 'Period of Wrath' because it was the date when the
> Occupation began, when the native rulers were abolished and the
> country was brought under the direct rule of Roman governors. This,
> according to Josephus, was the immediate cause of the uprising of
> Judas the Galilean.
>
> As CD 1: 5-10 would show, nationalists with Judas had persuaded
> themselves that this date was the Wrath because it was the beginning
> of 390 years of Roman occupation, sent by God as a punishment for the
> sins of Israel. They 'knew' this figure because they read Ezek 4:5 as
> a prophecy referring to their time, consistently with their treatment
> of the OT prophets in the pesharim. For the same reason, they
> referred
> in code to the Romans as 'Babylon', because they believed that the OT
> Babylonians were equivalent to the Romans. They needed to use codes
> because of their underground activities. The same device is used in
> the NT, in 1 Peter 5:13 and Rev 18."
>
> -----
>
> The Slavonic Josephushttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/=
3269
>
> "In the passage on the wonder-worker, the Slavonic version as now
> known reads: "And there assembled unto him of ministers one hundred
> and fifty, and a multitude of the people. Now when they saw his power,
> that he accomplished whatsoever he would by a word, and when they had
> made known to him their will, that he should enter into the city and
> cut down the Roman troops and Pilate and rule over us, he disdained us
> not (or, he heeded not)". Whichever version of the final phrase is
> correct, it is a newly known fact that the Qumran community had given
> themselves up to warfare against the Kittim, the Romans. The War
> Scroll and the pesher on Habakkuk give full illustrations of their
> terror of the Romans, a terror that was felt only after AD 6, with the
> Occupation. (Attempts to date the militant phase earlier have been
> dealt with in entries to our group.) At the same time, the DSS,
> including those from the militant phase, show such close parallels
> with Christian organisation and imagery that an objective scholar
> cannot deny a connection. It has not been believed that Jesus would
> have any dealings with militancy; but that fact must now be accepted.
> The words quoted above are likely to be reliable.
>
> In the same passage he is said to have had 150 ministers. The Qumran
> community were organised in 1000=92s, 100=92s, 50=92s and 10=92s. ( 11QT
> 57:1-5)."
>
> So, Jesus Christ had dealings with militancy and
> with zealots.
>
> >...
> > I am snoozing already. Do you really care if a woman mentioned in
> > Revelations is an actual person or not? I really do not care about
> > (and most share this opinion) what was in the heated imagination of
> > John the Theologian when he wrote this weird text. Is this important
> > in anything significant? I would say no. For all I know (and of all
> > you know), it may have been the girl next door who did not even looked
> > at him while carousing with other men!!! Most of these guys were
> > frustrated men!! We will ever know for sure? No!! So, Dr. Thiering
> > may want to spin out a hundred other theories and they would be all as
> > valid as the one above. It as all totally irrelevant.
> >...
>
> Yet, Dr. Thiering says "John the Theologian" did NOT
> write Rev 17,18. Please see -
>
> "Jesus of the Apocalypse" 1995, Transworld- Doubleday
> by Dr. Barbara Thiering.
>...

Any questions?

David Christainsen
Newton, Mass. USA